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phlogiston
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 336
Location: seattle
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 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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went by the local shop that was media blasting my pistons for me... they said they wouldn't reuse that pressure plate.
how tight should the wrist pins be in the pistons? i saw ben's video where he hammers them in with a dowel... mine take a bit of (hand) force to get them in place, but then they will slide back and forth just from shaking the piston... does this mean the pins are too worn? pistons? i don't see a spec in bently for the diameter of wrist pins or the bore holes in the pistons.... |
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phlogiston
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 336
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:49 am Post subject: |
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ok.... so i'm heeding the advice and will budget in an extra day to measure all these new components that i'm waiting for.
in the meantime, here are some photos of other components i'm worried about.
found this little groove when i pulled the rear main seal.
could this have been causing my leak? should i fill it with jb weld before putting in the new seal? or put some reinzosil in there before i put in the new seal?
here are some closeups of my pressure plate and flywheel. i had the flywheel resurfaced (but used my old clutch disc) when i put the engine in a couple years ago.
despite the bad appearance of the flywheel, i can't feel any of these marks with my fingernail.
the pressure plate shows the remnants of some machining marks, which are worn off in places. is this normal? evidence of uneven clutch engagement?
i ordered a new clutch disc (and pilot + throwout bearings). think i'm ok using the flywheel and pressure plate as is? those marks don't seem to respond to steel wool and carb cleaner... |
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wbx
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2005
Posts: 1254
Location: Monterey, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:38 am Post subject: |
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For me, it was my first ever engine build and decided to "go big or go home", so I built a 2.3 wbx. Not a good idea for a first build. I took some bad advice, made some assumptions, and ended up with a 10.3:1 compression ratio (discovered after the fact). This lasted about 6k miles until accelerating up a decent hill at 70mph made enough detonation, pounded out the #3 rod bearing, losing all oil pressure (which I noticed coming down the other side of the hill). Fortunately it was idling when the engine locked up so damage was minimal. That rod could have punched a hole in the van and been a whole lot worse.
Anyway, that is my story, so do it right!!! If you want some inspiration on how it should be done, check out that Subaru 3.3 engine rebuild thread. That guy is going to have a lot of confidence in the work that was done because he has checked and documented everything.
_________________
'84 Westy (first owner).......but my daily driver has pedals
My "perspective" mantra:
A Volkswagen Vanagon is just a material thing,
As such, it is of the earth,
And if i need to, I can let my Van go. |
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phlogiston
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 336
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| wbx wrote: |
I have, and ended up spinning a rod bearing as a direct result.
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any idea why it spun? out of spec connecting rod? excessive wear on the crank?
guess it's a good idea.... i'm already 100000000 hours into this project, what's a few more? i just wasn't sure if it was really necessary to measure a bunch of new and freshly machined parts.
i think i'll post my lifter question as it's own topic because it seems like somewhat of a self contained query...
thanks guys. |
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wbx
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2005
Posts: 1254
Location: Monterey, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| I have never not measured everything so I can't answer your question as to what happens if you don't do it. |
I have, and ended up spinning a rod bearing as a direct result.
You are in there - measure it all.
This thread started with you regretting a shortcut you took... Just sayin.
_________________
'84 Westy (first owner).......but my daily driver has pedals
My "perspective" mantra:
A Volkswagen Vanagon is just a material thing,
As such, it is of the earth,
And if i need to, I can let my Van go. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52642
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| I have never not measured everything so I can't answer your question as to what happens if you don't do it. |
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phlogiston
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 336
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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started preparing for reassembly today... bought a dremel and cleaned a lot of gasket residue off a lot of surfaces. mixed up a big batch of jb weld and filled the pits in the water jacket and all the galley plugs.
sanding my oil pump cover and head nuts. doesn't every vanagon owner keep a small piece of polished granite in their back cabinet?
got a "thread restorer kit" on loan from FLAPS. basically a bunch of really dull taps and dies. seems to be working pretty well for cleaning the gunk out of the head nuts. should have the rods tomorrow and start putting thing back together.
how important is it to check things like piston ring end gap, rod side clearance and plastigage the rod bearings? my pistons had .002" clearance before honing, and i'm using new rings and reconditioned rods with new bearings (and non stretchy bolts!). is it worth the time to measure everything? |
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klucz
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Joined: February 14, 2006
Posts: 1062
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Berryman Chemtool might help with cleaning the deposits on the channel surface. I think you can get it at Autozone in dip cans and also in spray cans.
Maybe a razor/utility blade if you're patient.
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84 Westy 4spd sold |
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phlogiston
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 336
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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...the saga continues....
couldn't resist the urge to order new con rods, bearings, clutch, etc, so looks like i won't be putting this back together for a few more days. more time to clean stuff i guess... started work on the channel gasket surface on the water jacket. it didn't look so bad at first, but whatever deposits are on there are quite stubborn.
started with a brass brush, moved on to stainless, at last i tried the file. only the file was really helping but i got too scared of accidentally removing too much metal. i guess a wire wheel is the tool i need to buy next. is there any solvent that helps remove the black deposits in the pitting?
pulled the oil pump cover and checked the end play of the gears. is the value normally the same for both gears? i measured .003 on the driven gear and .005 on the idler gear. oh well, it's getting replaced anyway, although it did not seem to sustain any damage from my dual-screwdriver removal.
there is some scoring inside the cover from contact with the gears. is this worth replacing the cover over? i'm also curious why the marks are not of an even depth, as if the gear was rubbing against the cover at an angle. the cover seems flat when i hold a metal ruler against it.
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JunkYarDog
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Joined: March 11, 2007
Posts: 676
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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I had a pilot bearing fail. Then the tranny shaft wobble took the seal out. The next thing I know the clutch was slipping and there was oil all over the ground. My 2 cents= Replace the bearing!
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I have never owned a VW I didn't like, but there have been a few Fords and Chevy's.
85' GL Sunroof
68' Beetle sedan
72' Chevy C10 (LWB Step)
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52642
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| phlogiston wrote: |
is there a thickness spec for the clutch disc? i rev match a lot and don't tax it that hard but it's over 5 years old and i'm wondering if i should replace it. |
The springs in the disc are going to fail with time and mileage no matter how your drive. If it has over 40,000 mile on it I would replace the disc just because. If it has gotten oily at all, you want to replace it anyway. Same idea with replacing the pilot bearing, they are so cheap they don't ever merit reuse in my opinion unless the mileage is very low. |
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phlogiston
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 336
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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well i'm really not in the mood to increase the scope of this project any more but i'm fully expecting to find that slinger displaced. i already cleaned the junction between the bell housing and transaxle in preparation for having to separate them for the first time tomorrow.
is there a thickness spec for the clutch disc? i rev match a lot and don't tax it that hard but it's over 5 years old and i'm wondering if i should replace it. |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52642
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| It is normal for the shaft to move around quite a bit. In actual use it is held in place by the pilot bearing. I don't know why but the input shaft seal barely seems to be able to do its job. I have always wondered why they didn't use a seal that fit tighter against the shaft. It really seems to depend on the slinger to do its job well. |
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phlogiston
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Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 336
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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in my dissasembly of the engine (it is now sitting on my porch with two of the pistons out) i have not come across any other potential sources of this leak. mainseal, flywheel oring, and pilot bearing were replaced when i installed the engine a couple years ago.
there is a puddle of about 1oz of oil in the bottom of the bellhousing. it's allergy season here so my ability to smell the difference between gear oil and engine oil is a bit diminished.
the input shaft has a mm or so of play now that the throwout bearing and its guide are removed. is this normal? it's not quite as bad as this video i found.
Link
when i move the shaft, oil oozes out around the seal, so i'm leaning towards that as the culprit. i failed at removing the seal with a screw, tomorrow i will buy a seal puller and check out that slinger.
Last edited by phlogiston on Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52642
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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None of your photos make it look like you have much of a leak. More like only very minor seepage that aren't enough to cause any drippage.
If you are getting oil dripping from the bellhousing make a search to see if the oil is leaking externally somewhere and then just collecting on the bottom of the bell housing as its a low spot. |
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phlogiston
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Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 336
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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thanks for the input... did some reading last night about the oil slinger issue on the transmission. i did have the tranny rebuilt about 5 years ago so i'd like to think that was taken care of and the seal shouldn't be leaking, but i guess that's an awful long time for an old van.
the inside of the bellhousing looks worse than behind the flywheel did. maybe the leak is coming from the tranny.
i've been wracking my brain trying to figure out how to tell... the oil and tranny fluid are both old enough as to be indistinguishable to my untrained eye. if i didn't have the van on ramps in the back i could open up the tranny oil filler and check the level, but it's all too tilted right now. i guess i'll just replace both seals (crank and input shaft), glue in a new oring with the loctite and hope for the best.
really, with all the oil and water connections i've opened up, and all the intense debate between very learned people on this board as to various obscure sealing products and assembly techniques, i think it will be a miracle if this engine isn't dripping fluids everywhere when i put it back together. |
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ftp2leta
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Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Your galley/bore hole plug (or whatever) are not leaking...
They are dry like hell (good news). still, SEAL THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mmm... interesting problem, like Wildthings said, not sure it's the engine.
Make sure that the o-ring is installed with Locktight 518 or any other strong sealant.
tools, it's a home made one, sorry, i didn't find anything good on the market. VW tool was design when the engine was new. It's now 25+ yo.
Ben
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Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52642
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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A leaking flywheel seal is going to tend to make radial streaks on the flywheel. I don't know what your horizontal streaks might be from.
Were you getting dripping from the bellhousing area?
Are you sure the oil you see is engine oil?
Have you checked the condition of your transmission input shaft seal?
Could the oil be coming from somewhere external to the bellhousing and just accumulating and dripping from the bottom? |
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phlogiston
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 336
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
Leaks from the rear main seal (flywheel seal) will tend to make streaks on the back side of the flywheel. |
good info... the streaks you mention are visible on the back of the flywheel; they are just about horizontal in the picture above. i'm rather certain at this point that the leak is from the mainseal/oring... i'm just trying to figure out if the problem is with the engine or with my installation technique, since the seals are rather new.
oh and as a side note, i measured the end play in my crank with the flywheel off... it's only 1mm, which seems a little less crazy than the .125" i originally estimated. with the flywheel on, there is no perceptible end play (no dial indicator around today), and it was in spec when i installed this engine a couple years ago. |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52642
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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If the flywheel o-ring were leaking you might well have oil on your disc and the disc may well be discolored, as in darker than normal in color, particularly on the side towards the engine.
Leaks from the rear main seal (flywheel seal) will tend to make streaks on the back side of the flywheel. Your red arrow points towards a machining mark, while the green arrow points towards a wear mark.
Leaks from galley plugs and the cam plug may not leave any signs much at all but oil accumulation within the bellhousing and drips off the bottom. |
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