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Batan
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Joined: March 10, 2003
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Location: Vancouver, BC
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 Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Desertbusman wrote: |
Real glad you finally got it taken care of and you're on the road again.
However I don't necessarily agree with you conclusion of what caused the problems. The way the clutch was torn up it looked more like the throwout bearing was not centered and was not evenly actuating the clutch. Then you actually found out that the fork was off centered. Bingo. Neither a Chinese, German, or American clutch will survive under those conditions.
You still buying parts at that same place? |
From what I could tell, play in bushings, and everything involved, the original original setup did not have the TO off center nor any play. The aftermarket crappy stuff did. I believe I was barking up the wrong tree with that and created more problems then solved. But we'll never know for sure, mind you at this point, I don't care that much as long as it all works! As for the parts, Sachs is Sachs. 
I agree with Aeromech conclusion, but I have to outline again that I got what I thought was the only plate available at the time since I could not find Sachs on their site. Later on I did and that's what I got to replace the Chinese cheapo plate.
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aeromech
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Whatever the outcome of this I think that the moral of the story should be for people to purchase "quality" parts over cheap parts. The worst quality seems to come from China.
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Desertbusman
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Real glad you finally got it taken care of and you're on the road again.
However I don't necessarily agree with you conclusion of what caused the problems. The way the clutch was torn up it looked more like the throwout bearing was not centered and was not evenly actuating the clutch. Then you actually found out that the fork was off centered. Bingo. Neither a Chinese, German, or American clutch will survive under those conditions.
You still buying parts at that same place?
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Batan
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Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
Fingers crossed here too buddy 
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UPDATE: I thought I'd update this for future reference. Finally took it for a more proper drive today. The clutch feels very good, nice and smooth, and the chatter that was present sometimes with the old clutch is gone! 
I am certain that the problem was a faulty brand new clutch plate. After all the additional (and unnecessary) problems due to weird shift bushing parts, my conclusion is that it was just a bad pressure plate. I talked to some friends and it's very common for these Chinese POS plates to do this exact same thing.
So, if you install one of these and the clutch is rock hard and binds - don't count on the brand new pressure plate being ok!
That said, it might be just me but there could be a whiff of the vibration I talked about when the pressure plate collapsed left. It's subtle enough that it could be just me and it acts the same if the clutch is in or out. I can feel it in the steering wheel and the floor a bit at certain RPM. It feels fine from the back, revving the engine by sitting next to it but I think I can feel something in the cab. Hopefully it's not the flywheel out of balance due to those 5-6 blocks of me driving with semi-collapsed pressure plate. Also, it could be that my engine is not as smooth as I remember it.  LOL
Hopefully this is the last thing on this topic. Either way, thanks everybody for their input! 
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Batan
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Joined: March 10, 2003
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Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
Fingers crossed here too buddy
If by left and right you mean the direction of coil on the retainer springs there's only one and it fits both sides AFAIK as long as the end with the bend is behind the arm. |
Yep, that's what I meant. Good to know! And
I am 99% sure the problems that arose after I swaped the
clutch parts were due to a bad Chinese pressure plate. I hope the CIP clutch shaft I got stands up to test better then the pressure plate, otherwise I downgraded!
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busdaddy
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Fingers crossed here too buddy
If by left and right you mean the direction of coil on the retainer springs there's only one and it fits both sides AFAIK as long as the end with the bend is behind the arm.
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Batan
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Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| skid wrote: |
| Fingers AND toes crossed!!! |
Well, I have yet to go for a real test drive but I can give the preliminary results that your crossed fingers and toes worked!
I put it back together tonight and everything feels normal. I moved the bus back and forth in the parking spot and again, seems normal. I'm gonna go for a test drive soon.
One question, I ended up using the newer style TO bearing clips/springs as I just don't trust the older style, especially since the aftermarket shaft has shallower notches on the back of it. That said, the possibly odd thing is that to me it looks like the new style(coil in the middle) should have a right and left spring... but I just had two left or right ones. It works but I'm not sure if that's how it's supposed to be. Anybody? Whoever knows what they look like will know what I'm talking about.
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skid
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Fingers AND toes crossed!!!
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Batan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:36 am Post subject: |
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So, finally got some motivation to tackle the damn thing again. Drilled a new hole in the bushing sleeve based on the old bushing, test fit it together... no go, still was not right. Which is weird because old stuff was not off center.
So, I then measured and drilled a hole based on my measurements. This one was offset a bit compared to the "stock" hole in the bushing. This seems to have centered the TO bearing(give or take a mm)...
I will be putting the motor back in tomorrow evening, fingers crossed!!!
A few questions:
- The clutch return springs are pretty stiff, I had to pull on the TO bearing arms and put a wood block behind them so I can thread the clutch cable. Is this normal for aftermarket springs? I have two and both acted the same
- The TO bearing clips, I have two seats, one a simpler shaped kinda like a "C" which are the old style I believe. And I have a pair that has a coil in the middle. I found the latter to be stiff and hard to get on, tried to spread it with bigger snap ring pliers but it just bends out of shape and is still hard to get on there. So I put the simple ones on. Should I swap? And is there a special technique, lol?
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Batan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Desertbusman wrote: |
Not being at all sarcastic but I think you have made great progress. I'd sure think that you now have identified to reason for the destroyed clutch and all the hassles you've had with it. T/O brg. not actuating the pressure plate accurately and correctly.
I just checked the fork on my old trans. The fork rotates smoothly and there is no side play whatsoever. It's the one I had put the bushing kit in a few years ago. It was a PITA to get assembled just as it was in my bug and a friends bus. With my new rebuilt trans I didn't pay any attention to the cross shaft.
Have you carefully studied the parts diagram in Bentley? And the half page of instructions? The kits evidently don't have the #11 bushing but I remember the difficulty aligning all the holes for the lock bolt and how easy it was to get the lock bolt in incorrectly where it would clamp the parts instead of locating them.
From again looking at the pictures and trying to remember, it seems like with the fork removed from the bell housing you can assemble all the parts on the fork shaft and determine that there is a complete stack up of parts and no way for any side slop. Then that only leaves the locating bolt to correctly position the whole affair in the bell housing. The difficulty I had was losing the bolt and washer and having to make one. Don't remember there being one in the kit. The length (also established by the washer thickness) was very critical. There is a good possibility that is where your problem is. The locating shank on the tip or the bolt has to enter and position the sleeve without contacting the shaft. Very finite dimensions.
So it seems as if your problem is either the bolt isn't locating or else the stack-up of parts on the shaft leaves end play.
BTW, those last pics are tremendous. Really helps with the communication of the issue. |
Thanks DBM. I can't recall if that was indeed the case with the old shaft as well so I'm not sure I exactly discovered what was wrong. Yes, had the Bentley and all seemed in order. I don't have it on hand to see what the #11 bushing is right now, will check in a bit. The length of the bolt seemed good. Locating the hole was easy, what I did was, I used the bushing and bolt before everything was in place, used a skinny screw drive with a 90 degree tip(one of my most useful "custom" tools) to locate the whole from the inside of the bushing. Then I marked the outside of the bushing and the bellhousing with aligning marks, then assembled everything and aligned the marks to get the bolt in.
I will have to disassemble everything and see, I was in too much back pain from sitting in there last night to do it. It will be a PITA to get the clutch arm off, it moves freely on the shaft but for some reason sticks at the last mm or so. Never a smooth thing with this particular problem...
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Desertbusman
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Not being at all sarcastic but I think you have made great progress. I'd sure think that you now have identified to reason for the destroyed clutch and all the hassles you've had with it. T/O brg. not actuating the pressure plate accurately and correctly.
I just checked the fork on my old trans. The fork rotates smoothly and there is no side play whatsoever. It's the one I had put the bushing kit in a few years ago. It was a PITA to get assembled just as it was in my bug and a friends bus. With my new rebuilt trans I didn't pay any attention to the cross shaft.
Have you carefully studied the parts diagram in Bentley? And the half page of instructions? The kits evidently don't have the #11 bushing but I remember the difficulty aligning all the holes for the lock bolt and how easy it was to get the lock bolt in incorrectly where it would clamp the parts instead of locating them.
From again looking at the pictures and trying to remember, it seems like with the fork removed from the bell housing you can assemble all the parts on the fork shaft and determine that there is a complete stack up of parts and no way for any side slop. Then that only leaves the locating bolt to correctly position the whole affair in the bell housing. The difficulty I had was losing the bolt and washer and having to make one. Don't remember there being one in the kit. The length (also established by the washer thickness) was very critical. There is a good possibility that is where your problem is. The locating shank on the tip or the bolt has to enter and position the sleeve without contacting the shaft. Very finite dimensions.
So it seems as if your problem is either the bolt isn't locating or else the stack-up of parts on the shaft leaves end play.
BTW, those last pics are tremendous. Really helps with the communication of the issue.
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Batan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Guess what, I ordered the same part number kit again(it's only 7 bucks) and this time it came identical to the one above.
Awesome! I ordered a new cross shaft as well. But, the curse seems to be going on and on, I got everything in and things are still not right.  I don't know what the hell is it with this "simple" clutch job but it's just been going on forever! 
Anyway, with the new shaft and new bushing kit installed, the TO bearing doesn't seem centered. There is a lateral play in the shaft and once on, the clutch return spring tends to pull it outwards. No, there is some lateral play in the bushing/sleeve that's held on by the screw - is there supposed to be any? IIRC, the original one had some too. If I push the shaft in, it will sit in place and the TO bearing seems centered, but as I said, the spring tends to keep the tension outwards.
The sleeve screw hole was slightly smaller then the original , so I had to drill it out a bit for the screw to be able to sit in there. I might have given it some slack that way but not more then a millimeter or so.
Here's what it looks like (the TO bearing is not clipped in here but you can see its shifted to the left)
This whole part can move left/right a bit:
And you can see here how it sits out the end bushing. When I push in the shaft making the bearing centered, this gap is about 1/3 of the size it is in this picture.
Again, I can't believe something this simple is turning out to be this complicated. Any input?
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SGKent 
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Desertbusman wrote: |
| Looks like with the one from cip you also get the screw. |
Mike - be careful lest you get yourself into trouble here. We know you are not a fan of CIP.....
thank you to others who have wished me a speedy recovery.
Rancho makes some good cross shaft kits. Or you can buy the individual pieces from VW if it is a late trans.
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encsdaddy
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| dasdachshund wrote: |
| Batan wrote: |
| Steve, I wish you a speedy recovery and good health onward!....... |
X2
-dasdachshund |
x3
encsdaddy
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dasdachshund
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Batan wrote: |
| Steve, I wish you a speedy recovery and good health onward!....... |
X2
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pjalau
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:43 am Post subject: |
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And while you are at it, check one more thing. The recess that the throw out bearing sits in - how does it look? Worn? Solid?
This is what happened to mine:
On the left, a new arm, on the right, my seriously worn out arm. Throw out bearing would press unevenly, bearing would rotate and chatter, I went through three clutches before I realized this problem. (expensive and ignorant on my part) |
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Desertbusman
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:39 am Post subject: |
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Looks like with the one from cip you also get the screw.
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Batan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Desertbusman wrote: |
Well you sure don't want to end up with Crappy Inferior Parts.
I don't remember where I got my bushing kit from. But the bushing was a real nice precision fit on the shaft I had. The only issue was that it was real difficult to get the locating screw in place. Rather it was real difficult to get the bushing in position to receive the retaining end of the screw. Based on your other picture I wouldn't be surprised if the operating shaft wasn't messed up.
Is it that difficult to get parts from all the many other parts suppliers? I would never again deal with CIP but have had good success with about everyone else. W W, Airhead, Chirco, SoCal Imports, B B, B D, and AutohausAZ.
But whereever the bushing kit came from it was good.
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Yes this experience has spent most of my CIP "points". Thing with them though is that they are local to me, I go and pick the parts up. Otherwise I would have started buying somewhere else a long time ago. The kit you show is indeed better, it has seals, the washer, the bushing is the correct one with a sleeve.. it even comes with a new screw!
This is what you get from CIP:
http://www.cip1.ca/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=VWC-113-198-026
That's it... and note the bushing, just one solid piece of brass pipe with a hole for the screw.
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Desertbusman
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:52 am Post subject: |
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Well you sure don't want to end up with Crappy Inferior Parts.
I don't remember where I got my bushing kit from. But the bushing was a real nice precision fit on the shaft I had. The only issue was that it was real difficult to get the locating screw in place. Rather it was real difficult to get the bushing in position to receive the retaining end of the screw. Based on your other picture I wouldn't be surprised if the operating shaft wasn't messed up.
Is it that difficult to get parts from all the many other parts suppliers? I would never again deal with CIP but have had good success with about everyone else. W W, Airhead, Chirco, SoCal Imports, B B, B D, and AutohausAZ.
But whereever the bushing kit came from it was good.
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Batan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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And the frustration... never ends!
I couldn't get back to finish this off on the bus as I crashed one of the bikes two weeks ago and banged up my leg a bit.
In the meantime I got a SACHS pressure plate and the clutch shaft bushing kit. It took me a bit to get that damn bushing out(the shaft end one) but I finally managed to collapse it and pull it out.
I thought that was the end of frustrations but noooo... there's more! The goddamn lever end bushing does NOT FIT the clutch shaft. Well, it does but has no room to move! I figured I'd tap it on there before I put it in properly as if I need to pull it off it's easier then doing it out the side of the tranny. Well I was right about that but I can't get it off at all now. The replacement bushing seems to be designed to get rid of the bushing sleeve and dust seals on both ends.
So, anyway, now I need to buy yet another bushing kit and a clutch shaft, I scored the old one a bit so I might change that as well so everything is new. Since I've had a hell of a time with CIP garbage parts, can anybody confirm that their cross shafts are not junk?? I'm thinking I'll buy another bushing kit(it's only $7 anyway) and the 68-70 shaft:
http://www.cip1.ca/SearchResults.asp?Search=clutch+shaft&Search1=Search
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