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splitjunkie
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Joined: April 04, 2006
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 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| Jacks wrote: |
| splitjunkie wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
looking at the left (drivers) side of the car, when you go forward the rear wheel rotates counter-clockwise. On a Bug that means the ring gear rotates counter-clockwise. This means the pinion gear tries to climb the ring gear, or rotate clockwise around it. That is the motion the transaxle mounts have to resist when accelerating.
On a Bus you add a reduction gear to each axle. The tires are still rotating counter-clockwise when going forward but the ring gear is now turning clockwise when viewed from the left side of the Bus. That means the pinion gear is trying to move down and pushes the front of the transaxle down when accelerating. |
That's what I though. I am not sure that I buy that assertion though. |
It seems as though you have never heard of Newton's third law, one of the physical laws of the mechanics of this universe. It's effects were published 250 years before the first VW was made. No VW's, or most other machines for that matter, would likely exist without at least some understanding of this law. But people still believe the world is flat. too.  |
My point is, yes when you flip the ring gear the axles themselves rotate backwards so that is the first "action" which would cause the "opposite reaction" cited.
However you then add the reduction gears (a second "action") which causes the final drive stub axles to rotate forward thus cancelling out the "opposite reaction" caused by the flipped ring gear.
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Jacks
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Joined: July 15, 2006
Posts: 2473
Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:49 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
looking at the left (drivers) side of the car, when you go forward the rear wheel rotates counter-clockwise. On a Bug that means the ring gear rotates counter-clockwise. This means the pinion gear tries to climb the ring gear, or rotate clockwise around it. That is the motion the transaxle mounts have to resist when accelerating.
On a Bus you add a reduction gear to each axle. The tires are still rotating counter-clockwise when going forward but the ring gear is now turning clockwise when viewed from the left side of the Bus. That means the pinion gear is trying to move down and pushes the front of the transaxle down when accelerating. |
That's what I though. I am not sure that I buy that assertion though. |
It seems as though you have never heard of Newton's third law, one of the physical laws of the mechanics of this universe. It's effects were published 250 years before the first VW was made. No VW's, or most other machines for that matter, would likely exist without at least some understanding of this law. But people still believe the world is flat. too.
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Jack Staggs
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splitjunkie
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Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4224
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| EVfun wrote: |
looking at the left (drivers) side of the car, when you go forward the rear wheel rotates counter-clockwise. On a Bug that means the ring gear rotates counter-clockwise. This means the pinion gear tries to climb the ring gear, or rotate clockwise around it. That is the motion the transaxle mounts have to resist when accelerating.
On a Bus you add a reduction gear to each axle. The tires are still rotating counter-clockwise when going forward but the ring gear is now turning clockwise when viewed from the left side of the Bus. That means the pinion gear is trying to move down and pushes the front of the transaxle down when accelerating. |
That's what I though. I am not sure that I buy that assertion though.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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Not Safari Izzy
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Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 839
Location: Santa Clara, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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Put the concept1 nose cone on a tunnel tranny and installed it in my 11G pan yesterday, figured I'd throw up a picture:
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DBK Nor Cal
1952 Beetle 11G
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koolerkrotch
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Joined: August 25, 2015
Posts: 54
Location: CT and FL
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:01 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| I'm driving it now..feels fine...works great. I could see where some regular use of hole shots and drag starts would shorten it's life, but this car doesn't get that type of use ever. |
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EVfun 
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Posts: 6370
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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looking at the left (drivers) side of the car, when you go forward the rear wheel rotates counter-clockwise. On a Bug that means the ring gear rotates counter-clockwise. This means the pinion gear tries to climb the ring gear, or rotate clockwise around it. That is the motion the transaxle mounts have to resist when accelerating.
On a Bus you add a reduction gear to each axle. The tires are still rotating counter-clockwise when going forward but the ring gear is now turning clockwise when viewed from the left side of the Bus. That means the pinion gear is trying to move down and pushes the front of the transaxle down when accelerating.
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splitjunkie
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Posts: 4224
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| jason wrote: |
I dont like those type of mounts for non reduction boxes. Reductions push the nose cone down where the rubber is thick. Non reductions push it up where the rubber is thin.
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can you explain what you mean by this?
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Chris
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jason
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Location: Garage
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| I like my $6 mount better, everything is external, nothing inside required. Fast fab looks better though. |
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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You can convert any irs transmission to swingaxle as long as it has the two side cover case. At some point in the 70's the case only had one removable side cover. To convert a two side cover irs you need the swingaxle differential, side covers, bearings, shims and axles. You have to retain the ring gear and reset the backlash and bearing preload.
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Chris
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Bruce
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Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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You would probably be amazed to learn how many former IRS gearboxes are now swing axle. They have all the good parts inside.
The earliest swing axle gearboxes are junk compared to later ones. Also, they are geared wrong for a 1600.
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koolerkrotch
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Joined: August 25, 2015
Posts: 54
Location: CT and FL
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| koolerkrotch wrote: |
| In some fitments (like mine) , the hockey stick just catches the corners of the big nut on the pinion shaft when in first and third gear. |
This will only occur on the earliest gearboxes up to about 68. Later ones used a circlip to secure the pinion shaft so there's much more clearance. |
Well, since the idea of the product is to not modify the split chassis, don't you have to use a swing axle version of the tunnel case? which is pretty much limited to 67 and earlier for availability, at least in the US. Can you put swing axles on an IRS type tunnel case? |
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Bruce
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Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| koolerkrotch wrote: |
| In some fitments (like mine) , the hockey stick just catches the corners of the big nut on the pinion shaft when in first and third gear. |
This will only occur on the earliest gearboxes up to about 68. Later ones used a circlip to secure the pinion shaft so there's much more clearance.
| koolerkrotch wrote: |
| Worth all the effort though.. NO mods to the splitty chassis and tunnel case trans in the RIGHT location. Product is well worth the price. |
Rubber mounted for quiet operation too.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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koolerkrotch
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Joined: August 25, 2015
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Location: CT and FL
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:40 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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Rancho delivered on the billet nose cone...appears to be made by FastFab and is a beautifully made unit. The design of this unit is to perform mounting and hockey stick functionality in about half the space the the VW engineers intended. as such the clearances inside for the hockey stick movement are very tight.
In some fitments (like mine) , the hockey stick just catches the corners of the big nut on the pinion shaft when in first and third gear. The noise when you're driving and hit 3rd gear sounds like the end of the world...but it isn't. a few mm of clearancing on the nut corners and/or hockey stick solves the issue. Considering how tight it is in there I don't think this is really a design flaw...just requires a few mins of custom fitting.
When using one of these be sure to check this BEFORE you install your transmission. (ask me how I know) if you put it in 3rd gear then push the hockey stick in as far as it will go while hand turning the input shaft you will feel the pulsing of the nut corners just barely hitting the stick. This apparently does not occur in every case.
Also give yourself extra time to install the tranny into the car. The mounting area is VERY tight and it took a bit of fiddling to get the mount, horse shoe, and bolts in there.
Worth all the effort though.. NO mods to the splitty chassis and tunnel case trans in the RIGHT location. Product is well worth the price. |
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koolerkrotch
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Location: CT and FL
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:43 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| Bruce wrote: |
The WagensWest one is going to transmit a LOT of noise into the car.
Call up Rancho, they have a nose cone that bolts onto the gearbox with no mods and uses the stock rubber mount system. |
Thanks Bruce, rancho indeed has them..we'll see what it looks like when it arrives. |
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koolerkrotch
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Joined: August 25, 2015
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Location: CT and FL
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| Bruce wrote: |
The WagensWest one is going to transmit a LOT of noise into the car.
Call up Rancho, they have a nose cone that bolts onto the gearbox with no mods and uses the stock rubber mount system. |
I believe that about the wagenswest mount, I've had my experiences with poly mounts. I'll call rancho, but i can find no such product in their web store. |
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Bruce
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Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:23 pm Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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The WagensWest one is going to transmit a LOT of noise into the car.
Call up Rancho, they have a nose cone that bolts onto the gearbox with no mods and uses the stock rubber mount system.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| koolerkrotch wrote: |
| splitjunkie wrote: |
If your current tranny is a synchro on 2nd through 4th gear split case then you have a '59 and earlier bus nose cone. The bus continued to use the doghnut front mount up until '59 so that provides a bolt on solution to knstall a syncro split case in a split window bug.
If you want to put a tunnel trans in a split bug use the nose cone in your second link (the one mr okrasa posted) as it will give you the best fit with no alignment problems. The wagonwest mount shifts your engine and tranny back a little bit wheras the nose cone maintains the correct positioning. |
I'd like to use the mr okrasa mount...can't seem to buy it.
I guess the wagenwest product requires a 59-?? Bus nose cone. The one they show is clearly different than this early one. What about the upward thrust issue? The wagenwest poly section is u shaped, designed for reduction box downward force...right? Are you supposed to not use that section of the WW mount and use a donut instead? |
Yes you have to use a '59 and later nose cone with the wagonwest mount.
I am dubious about the design of their mount though. It might be great but the shape of the urethane and the small amount of support provided by the retaining ring concerns me. PM mr okrasa and ask about the mount. I am sure he will get right back to you.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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koolerkrotch
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Joined: August 25, 2015
Posts: 54
Location: CT and FL
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
If your current tranny is a synchro on 2nd through 4th gear split case then you have a '59 and earlier bus nose cone. The bus continued to use the doghnut front mount up until '59 so that provides a bolt on solution to knstall a syncro split case in a split window bug.
If you want to put a tunnel trans in a split bug use the nose cone in your second link (the one mr okrasa posted) as it will give you the best fit with no alignment problems. The wagonwest mount shifts your engine and tranny back a little bit wheras the nose cone maintains the correct positioning. |
I'd like to use the mr okrasa mount...can't seem to buy it.
I guess the wagenwest product requires a 59-?? Bus nose cone. The one they show is clearly different than this early one. What about the upward thrust issue? The wagenwest poly section is u shaped, designed for reduction box downward force...right? Are you supposed to not use that section of the WW mount and use a donut instead? |
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EverettB
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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It looks like it might be a Bus nose cone to me.
Since it doesn't have a 211 part #, it's most likely an early Barndoor Bus nose cone, which pre-dated the use of the 9-digit parts scheme.
The crude-looking VW symbol on the nose cone also indicates that it is early.
Here's the nose cone from my '54 Single Cab, slightly different part # but same idea:
(Note: a piece is broken off the mount for the rubber here)
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Fitting 60's gearbox to 51 split. |
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If your current tranny is a synchro on 2nd through 4th gear split case then you have a '59 and earlier bus nose cone. The bus continued to use the doghnut front mount up until '59 so that provides a bolt on solution to install a syncro split case in a split window bug.
If you want to put a tunnel trans in a split bug use the nose cone in your second link (the one mr okrasa posted) as it will give you the best fit with no alignment problems. The wagonwest mount shifts your engine and tranny back a little bit (edit: apparantly this is not the case. They claim that their mount does not shift the transmission back) wheras the nose cone maintains the correct positioning.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
Last edited by splitjunkie on Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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