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satterley_sr Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2005 Posts: 652 Location: Belleville,MI
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Fabricate through rod / sway bar for front air ride, ideas? |
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Per Formula Vee experience. If you run a sway bar in the axle tube, you must run spacers between the trailing arm and the end of the beam. they look like the rubber spacer but are make of aluminum. If you don't there is no way to control the arm from moving in and out and your camber will be all over the place. Fancy formula vees even run a needle bearing to reduce friction. _________________ DDC racing |
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Singerdude Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2015 Posts: 464 Location: Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Fabricate through rod / sway bar for front air ride, ideas? |
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I hope this works as good as it looks. |
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emanchester Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2004 Posts: 117
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Fabricate through rod / sway bar for front air ride, ideas? |
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Any updates on this? Looking to do the same thing in the near future. |
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dorf_online Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Got this back today!
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dorf_online Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Decided to go with 1/2" diameter in the middle. Will post pictures once done. |
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[email protected] Banned
Joined: March 13, 2011 Posts: 392
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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raul arrese wrote: |
I think your way over thinking all of this , the stock leaves work great for torsion but if you don't want to use them then do what modok says and find something readily available that will work , like a torsion bar from another car or vw ... take a walk in the junk yard . |
I am sure that most will agree that the factory bug torsion bar is cumbersome at best and an interference. When you try to make it a performance sway bar then the added diameter only takes away from your turning radius - especially if you are using aftermarket big wheels. Sway bars are only meant as a resistance to body roll and nothing more, so if you can do this by using the torsion tube then the purpose is served. Nice and compact, lighter weight, and without tire interference.
As far as what spring material is better; as long as it is a spring steel (yes 4130 is a spring steel when brought to a certain hardness) and the sway bar's maximum angle of twist is not exceeded (which in this case it will not likely be because a sway bar's length is twice as long as torsion leaves used to suspend the car) the only question remains, "how stiff do I want the sway bar to be?" I would have to agree with dorf_online that a solid round torsion bar (by definition) will be superior to factory leaf springs, which are less stiff. I personally would not go thicker than 3/4". |
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raul arrese Samba Member

Joined: July 23, 2006 Posts: 1338 Location: miami florida
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:19 am Post subject: |
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dorf_online wrote: |
Rual, like you did on your 59's gear shift? LOL that thing is awesome. Over thinking but awesome!
I don't think I'll find something that will work that is narrowed 4" from stock, with existing splines that will line up.
So... here it goes.
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Shifter looks good huh ?? more show than go ... lol .. well I guess you gotta do wht u gotta do , I have had to re -engineer shit all the time . _________________ " Hot vw feature , may 2014 issue "
" 2013 Bug Jam class winner "
" Bug Jam best motor and best paint "
" 2013 Lakeland Classic Best of Show "
" 2014 Show and Shine , First in class "
"
Like my facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/Raul-Arrese-custom-fabrication-and-performance/1832968110262608 |
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dorf_online Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Rual, like you did on your 59's gear shift? LOL that thing is awesome. Over thinking but awesome!
I don't think I'll find something that will work that is narrowed 4" from stock, with existing splines that will line up.
So... here it goes.
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raul arrese Samba Member

Joined: July 23, 2006 Posts: 1338 Location: miami florida
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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I think your way over thinking all of this , the stock leaves work great for torsion but if you don't want to use them then do what modok says and find something readily available that will work , like a torsion bar from another car or vw ... take a walk in the junk yard . _________________ " Hot vw feature , may 2014 issue "
" 2013 Bug Jam class winner "
" Bug Jam best motor and best paint "
" 2013 Lakeland Classic Best of Show "
" 2014 Show and Shine , First in class "
"
Like my facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/Raul-Arrese-custom-fabrication-and-performance/1832968110262608 |
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modok Samba Member

Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 27674 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinking 12mm
If it fits inside a tie rod then it is just under 12mm. |
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dorf_online Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Portland, Oregon
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modok Samba Member

Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 27674 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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That sounds like a HUGE amount of work, to machine all that and then heat treat it, and 4130 is not often used as a spring far as I know, it is aimed to be a weldable steel for frames, so if your chicken to weld it then it can't be the best choice. annealed it will be soft!
But often 4130 is so common you get a good deal and may as well use it simply as a good quality steel.
Screwdrivers and many chisels today are made of a "stressproof steel" or "shock resisting steel" tool steel alloys, s2, S7 would be handy because it air hardens. This would be the BEST to use as a sway bar twists both ways, unlike a spring.
What length are type-3 torsion bars?? Might be a LOT faster and better to figure out how to adapt them. Can't beat em join em!! |
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dorf_online Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:26 am Post subject: |
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So far the input I have received from people that know more than I, is to use 41XX chromium-molybdenum low alloy steel. In particular I have my eye on:
4130 CD Annealed
HOT ROLLED & COLD FINISHED
4130 is a chromium-molybdenum low alloy steel with lower carbon than the more popular 4140. Because of lower carbon content, it has better weldability but lower hardenability (response to hardening). Maximum achievable hardness by furnace hardening is approximately 52 HRC. 4130 can be hardened by either water or oil quenching. 4130 is furnished in either the annealed or normalized condition depending upon mill availability.
Normalized Cold Drawn Rounds from 7/8" through 1-1/2" Diameter
I am planning on getting 1" diameter solid round, milling the contour profiles to fit the control arms, mimicking the shape of the 10 leaf springs and then lathing down the middle to probably close to stock diameter. Making it out of a solid piece, no welding.
Can anybody tell me what the diameter of a stock sway bar was on the 67-77 IRS, ball joint front ends? |
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slalombuggy Samba Member

Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 9332 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:52 am Post subject: |
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The beam was narrowed 3" to keep the wheels under the fenders Never done any testing. Just know it works good and hasn't twisted. I probably did it all wrong LOL
brad |
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modok Samba Member

Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 27674 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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You can use cheapo mild steel for sway bars in some cases.
It depends on the dimensions of the bar and how many degrees it needs to twist. |
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mark tucker Samba Member

Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23950 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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try the leaves and see weather you need more or less,thats pretty simple. a torsion tube can be just about anything, as long as it dosent take set or bend&stay. my drag car has a rick jones anti roll bar on the rear, mild steel tube with chromoly arms atttached to it& down links to the rear end housing. find out what you need and go from there. you could tune the leaves to get what you want. |
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esde Samba Member

Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 6338 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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slalombuggy wrote: |
I just used cold rolled square bar, I've had it out a few times and have never seen a twist in it even with the heavy loads put on it by autocrossing with big sticky tires in the front
brad |
Interesting. Have you ever measured how much it will flex? Is it a stock width beam? I cold form a lot of steel (decorative ironwork) and even cold rolled doesn't spring back when you bend it past a certain point. |
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slalombuggy Samba Member

Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 9332 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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I just used cold rolled square bar, I've had it out a few times and have never seen a twist in it even with the heavy loads put on it by autocrossing with big sticky tires in the front
brad |
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esde Samba Member

Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 6338 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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dorf_online wrote: |
Talking to my machinist friend he is willing to mill out a profile for the ends and then lathe down the middle of the rod to what ever diameter I choose from a single piece. Starting with a 1" square rod. |
You have to make sure you are using the right alloy steel, or else it's just going to twist, bend, and break.
I have seen the local chassis shop use what is called "stress proof" steel rod for custom sway bars, maybe look into that. |
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dorf_online Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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esde, I will be running monroe MA803 air shocks as suspension. Fitting a swaybar under the beam won't work for me because at times I want to drop it too low.
As for being too strong, you can manipulate the twist by using different diameter rod.
Talking to my machinist friend he is willing to mill out a profile for the ends and then lathe down the middle of the rod to what ever diameter I choose from a single piece. Starting with a 1" square rod. |
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