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Ben Middleton
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016
Posts: 242
Location: England, UK
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 Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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| Yes the metal seemed very hard, so hopefully it should be fine |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42940
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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| Ben Middleton wrote: |
Not sure why the ID was 25mm on those shims. I opened the ID to 35mm on a lathe. Just for the record, OD should be 45mm and ID should be 35mm.
The recommendation for that part number should probably be removed from the first post- unless a warning is added that it may have the wrong ID.
Thanks chaps |
Make sure those a hardened steel or they will work from the pressures, and your axle will loosen.
_________________
 Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
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Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
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Ben Middleton
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016
Posts: 242
Location: England, UK
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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Not sure why the ID was 25mm on those shims. I opened the ID to 35mm on a lathe. Just for the record, OD should be 45mm and ID should be 35mm.
The recommendation for that part number should probably be removed from the first post- unless a warning is added that it may have the wrong ID.
Thanks chaps |
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Ben Middleton
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016
Posts: 242
Location: England, UK
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 2:44 am Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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Ok so I bought the shims with the part number you recommended but theyβre too small. What are the correct dimensions for a shim for this purpose?
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 4145
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com) has nice 10-pks of hardened "arbor shims" 35 mm ID x 45 mm OD in various thicknesses which would work
quite well in this application I believe, requiring perhaps only a small bit of filing on the ID.
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 24414
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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Nice. I think there was a thread on bearing preload if you want to get that right
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16813
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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Yeah its a little old, but just ran into this and found a solution. Late bay with new bus depot drums, backing plates, etc. I obviously have the shorter spacers and did not want to tear everything back apart nor try to find the longer spacers. Went to Tractor Supply and got a pack of 1 3/8" ID machine bushings. About $3 for a pack of 3 or 4. Id was perfect. OD needed about 5/16" shaved off. A little thicker than the longer spacer by about 0.20". Cut the bulk of the OD off with my bandsaw and then cleaned it up on the grinder. Slid the new spacer over the axle to the existing spacers....Just did one side and have teh spacer ready for the other side.
Once I found out why I had the grinding, total fix took maybe and hour.
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Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42940
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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I was thinking this thread while we were taking the dogs in to get their annual shots.
It is not any of our faults, none of us, that the replacement backing plates rub. No one here chose that. We can't say we are victims either but this all falls under VW's decisions to abandon the air cooled market so many years ago. 30 years ago, when we needed a set of backing plates, we would have either gone into a VW dealer ship and gotten the correct 211 bay ones, or the parts person would have told us we needed to also replace the spacers or the drums would rub. Or, maybe we would find a low miles wreck and pay for the backing plates on that one.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42940
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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There are different variants of the Vanagon 251 plate. Some are late for self adjusters etc. Those might be /D. The early ones have adjusting holes but they are still a 251 part number. The 211 part was replaced with a 251 part number. I can only tell you that I have purchased 2 sets of 71-79 backing plates with adjuster holes from two sources and all were genuine VW. They were all purchased as 211 parts and arrived with a 251 part number instead of 211. They rub. If one does a search they will find many threads where people who replace backing plates get rubbing. The fix is use the new spacer when the backing plate is replaced or machine the drum. Yes. real bay plates made back in the 1970's were different. My 1977 had no holes for shoe hold down springs for example. And, they did not rub but they were too rusty to use safely. It is my belief (I have no finite proof) that the early 251 stamping is sold as a 211 part today and the late 251 stamping is used as the self-adjuster plate. If someone has photos of a NEW 211 part for sale compared to the EARLY 251 part with adjuster holes please post the photos side by side.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 4145
Location: Seattle, WA
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42940
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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the backing plates sold most places are vanagon plates which is a 251 part number. They are designed for the newer spacers. If 211 plates are available and they match the originals they would have a different offset. The variance in part might explain why some folks end up with rubbing and some do not. Let me restate. The offset is different between the 211 (bay) and 251 (vanagon) back plates. FWIW I have ordered these from several different places and every single time someone has told me that sell the 211 version they have shipped me the 251 version. The two parts look almost identical and if you asked VW for the 211 part they would have substituted the 251 part. There is a mention of the difference in spacers in Bentley (image #3 below) and also the a factory manual supplement. I don't recall if I got any backing plates from Ron. I know he was out the first time I needed some back in 2009. IMHO if one buys a genuine plate it will be the 251 part so just plan on new spacers, machining the drums or hearing the rubbing until it wears thru the high spots in the 251 plate. VW did not need to make the 211 part once they changed production on spacers.
These are my photos so I know they are accurate. The part number VW uses for the old spacers and new spacers is the same part number however the dimensions changed. All the parts have the VW/Audi stamp on them. The new ones are thicker so there is less chance of collapsing. They are also longer so they move the drum farther out.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
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Busdepot
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 1359
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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| Quote: |
| I would presume the "Genuine VW" bus backing plates others sell are all from the same source? No? |
Not necessarily. There is production from Germany (not much anymore when it comes to Buses), Brazil, Mexico, etc. Then there is Volkswagen Classic Parts in Germany (a division of VW), who will in some cases source an aftermarket part and sprinkle holy water on it and now it is an official VW part. (Often it's the same part I can get from the actual supplier for a lot less money.) Also some parts were intended for U.S. spec Buses and some for other markets - which doesn't matter in cases where the specs were identical anyway, but in other cases the part simply doesn't fit properly. I spend much of my time trying to identify those differences (usually succeeding, periodically failing). So it's entirely plausible that our "Genuine VW" part would fit and someone else's wouldn't. They were both genuine VW, but from different divisions of VW and/or intended for different markets. Then there is also the possibility of flat-out incorrect cross-reference data. For example even some of my best suppliers list certain Bus and Vanagon parts as interchanging when I know from experience that they don't. Sure, it may be a genuine VW part - but it's the wrong genuine VW part. An unsuspecting retailer may take their word for it and end up selling a part that fits poorly if at all.
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The Bus Depot
www.busdepot.com |
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 4145
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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Yes, no rubbing, even with original-length inner bearing spacers. I was surprised, because the clearance to the drum is very close, even on original German backing plates.
It's sort of a mystery to me why others are having problems. Small differences in drum dimensions, perhaps?
I would presume the "Genuine VW" bus backing plates others sell are all from the same source? No?
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'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
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Busdepot
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 1359
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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I will see if the supplier can give us an updated photo. I see you noted earlier that the ones you got from us had no problems with rubbing, unlike the ones other vendors have been selling, even if they differed slightly from the photo.
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- Ron Salmon
The Bus Depot
www.busdepot.com |
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 4145
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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For your information: the illustration that BusDepot is using on their website for the bus backing plates is not an accurate representation of
what they are selling. That illustration shows NO extra raised portion (which seems to be the source of most drum interference problems), the
hand brake cable entrance is different, and there are no holes for the hold-down pins. The ones I received from BD differed in all those areas.
Seems to me only a minimal effort is required to put up a photo of the actual part being sold.
_________________
'67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Busdepot
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 1359
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Smurf wrote: |
I just took off my backing plates today...oh man they're thin and have rot holes throughout 
Are these http://www.busdepot.com/211609425pr backing plates the solution?
Are they better than the ones pictured that caused the rubbing?
Has anyone had any issues with the bd ones? |
If they are indeed genuine VW they are actually the 251 part sold as 211. As Ron at Bus Depot BusDepot to be sure but I believe that is what is sold today.. |
The ones we sell come from Volkswagen/Brazil and are Bus ones. They have the 211 part number right on them. We've been selling them for nearly 20 years and I have never had anyone report a fit issue.
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- Ron Salmon
The Bus Depot
www.busdepot.com |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42940
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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| lolight70 wrote: |
Slightly different issue but related
I am in the process of replacing the rear hub bearings,
I have no drum rubbing but i have a bit of play when i pull on the wheel in and out.
When i spin the rear wheel,it all seems smooth(CV removed)
The hub nut was torqued super tight,bearings look oem
Will new bearings fix the problem ?
Thanx
Chris |
Chris - Knowing if those are too worn is a feel thing for most mechanics. They have to move a tiny bit so grease can move around but it is not very much. See that doesn't help you but I wish it did. How do the two sides compare? How many miles on them?
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42940
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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| Smurf wrote: |
I just took off my backing plates today...oh man they're thin and have rot holes throughout
Are these http://www.busdepot.com/211609425pr backing plates the only solution?
Are they better than the ones pictured that caused the rubbing?
Has anyone had any issues with the bd ones? |
If they are indeed genuine VW they are actually the 251 part sold as 211. As Ron at Bus Depot BusDepot to be sure but I believe that is what is sold today. If you use that part then the spacer inside on 1971 - 1979 has to be the longer one or you will have to mill a little off the brake drums so they don't rub - especially when turning.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
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lolight70
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2013
Posts: 160
Location: West Australia
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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Slightly different issue but related
I am in the process of replacing the rear hub bearings,
I have no drum rubbing but i have a bit of play when i pull on the wheel in and out.
When i spin the rear wheel,it all seems smooth(CV removed)
The hub nut was torqued super tight,bearings look oem
Will new bearings fix the problem ?
Thanx
Chris |
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Smurf
Samba Member
Joined: January 20, 2004
Posts: 918
Location: Colmar, PA
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Brake drum rubbing (Grinding) on backing plate |
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I just took off my backing plates today...oh man they're thin and have rot holes throughout
Are these http://www.busdepot.com/211609425pr backing plates the only solution?
Are they better than the ones pictured that caused the rubbing?
Has anyone had any issues with the bd ones?
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1977 Westfalia (Subaru Conversion)
"Traveling in a fried-out Kombi
On a hippie trail head full of zombie"
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