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Globedog12 
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Joined: April 11, 2024
Posts: 236
Location: Atlanta, GA
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 Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2025 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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I have an injector rehab csv installed on my 76 bus. It is a tight fit but it works. The only thing I don’t like is that it makes getting to the distributor clamp nut a pain in the ass. Doable but with a lot of wrench flipping and repositioning. Still worth it to get rid of the original.
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Bnanwel
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Joined: November 10, 2022
Posts: 406
Location: Ft Lauderdale
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:04 am Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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That’s an excellent point. Perhaps the t-barb could be shortened? There’s an extra 1/2” of stem…
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airschooled
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Location: West Coast, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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Maybe he means 50% of the cars out there that have DVDAs and larger vacuum canisters? 
Robbie
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Bnanwel
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Joined: November 10, 2022
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Location: Ft Lauderdale
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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That’s a good point, but it looks closer than it is. There is a solid 3/4” between the vac can and the rehab csv. It allows about 35 degrees of rotation for the distributor; I checked when I retimed the engine. I don’t foresee any problems.
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tommu
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Joined: November 15, 2011
Posts: 665
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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| Bnanwel wrote: |
You’ll like the injector rehab csv. It’s an excellent product.
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Functionally it is excellent - but it's 50/50 whether it will interfere with your vacuum can. It does protrude..
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mr matt
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Joined: May 26, 2005
Posts: 1019
Location: southeast Pa
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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Thanks for the pic Bnan, was wondering about the fit. Looks good!
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
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Location: West Coast, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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L-Jet already has injector enrichment during cold start. Pin 4 on the ECU triggers it.
Robbie
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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| mikedjames wrote: |
Just thinking.. you could inject a current into the output of the AFM when the engine is cold to cause it to increase the injector pulsewidth. A few transistors could replace the thermotime switch.
From my studies of the CIS as used on the VW Golf GTI and the hybrid VW/Ford system I own that came from a Baja Beetle - The other CIS cold enrichment system was a valve that controlled the pressure regulator installed in a die cast box bolted to the engine block with a bimetallic strip controlling the valve and a 12V heater element wrapped round the strip.
If the bimetallic strip was cold it caused the pressure regulator in the fuel metering valve assembly to boost the pressure. |
Yes. Similar to what I was pointing out earlier in this thread! Fuel dosage = pressure X time. If it's too complex to dial in more time (meaning pulsewidth)....raise the pressure. One could also just momentarily choke off return flow in the fuel loop.
I bet if I looked hard enough I could find a hydraulic inline valve that with a pull of the lever....cuts off liquid flow through it. Put an orifice in the block off plate so it's not a total blockage so it moderates pressure at a set level. You could almost connect this to a defroster knob on the dash with a cable. Like....manual choke....but manual cold start enrichment at the main injectors with no cold start injector. Ray |
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mikedjames
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Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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Just thinking.. you could inject a current into the output of the AFM when the engine is cold to cause it to increase the injector pulsewidth. A few transistors could replace the thermotime switch.
From my studies of the CIS as used on the VW Golf GTI and the hybrid VW/Ford system I own that came from a Baja Beetle - The other CIS cold enrichment system was a valve that controlled the pressure regulator installed in a die cast box bolted to the engine block with a bimetallic strip controlling the valve and a 12V heater element wrapped round the strip.
If the bimetallic strip was cold it caused the pressure regulator in the fuel metering valve assembly to boost the pressure.
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Bnanwel
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Joined: November 10, 2022
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Location: Ft Lauderdale
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2025 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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You’ll like the injector rehab csv. It’s an excellent product.
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mr matt
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Joined: May 26, 2005
Posts: 1019
Location: southeast Pa
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2025 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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will be looking into this developed unit
from injector rehab...
Upgraded CSV – Injector – Cold Start Valve – EV1 Dual Barb
https://injector-rehab.com/product/upgraded-csv-in...965ZMfyc50
Contacted them, they replied for buses, they prob have hundred out there with no complaints.
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SGKent
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Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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| Quote: |
| A new one is hrd to find and/or very expensive, |
50 year old car almost. Don't expect anything to be inexpensive or available. Parts for a 1938 Packard are probably more available than Bus parts these days.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| I’ve measured cold start injection on Volvo 5 cylinders And found cold start time is about 5 msec whereas warm idle is 2 msec , GOT |
Interesting!
Just so I am clear, this is just cold starting with pulsewidth on normal injectors with no CSV right?
So just for a volumetric calculation...not getting into 5 vs 4 cylinders...2 is 40% of 5. So cold start is 60% greater fuel volume than normal running.
Ok...lets run with that for a minute.
With a bus you get 29 psi at idle with throttle closed. If for some reason you have throttle open or vacuum is lost...you get 36 psi.
Thats ~19.45% greater fuel volume at any pulsewidth when throttle is open....or vacuum is lost.
Lets say we connected a simple vacuum breaker solenoid like what they used in the 70's in Canada and other markets to cut vacuum advance on and off during warmup....tee'd into the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator.....turned on and off by the thermo time switch and the timing function in the ECU through the positive wire that feeds the original CSV.
Now you have ~20% extra enrichment. Add to that, a cutout controlled by the same TTS...to add say....500-700 ohms into the TS-2 as ballast...only during the cold start cycle. You could do the same at the same time with TS-1
I bet we could get an easy 60% greater fuel enrichment this way during that cycle....with no CSV.
Once could also do this with a solenoid that chokes off the fuel regulator return line giving you almost any fuel pressure rise you want for a short period of time. Fuel dosage = pressure x time. Ray |
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Abscate
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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I’ve measured cold start injection on Volvo 5 cylinders And found cold start time is about 5 msec whereas warm idle is 2 msec , GOT
On edit for Rays’ question below ...system uses. No CSV , just the stock injectors
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Last edited by Abscate on Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:05 am; edited 2 times in total |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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This is an interesting thread.
As others have noted a page back and a year or so ago....an injector is an injector.
So from back in 2019 from Furgo:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
I've only come to read the updates on this thread now. Thanks so much for taking the time to test, document and share your setup.
Vee Dub Nut wrote:
-Flow specs are unknown. I would expect it to be a higher volume flow than the original CSV based solely on the fact that the OEM application for this part was a larger displacement engine (~2.8L BMW). [...]
85 cubic/cm per minute. That is 5100 cubic centimeters per hour. That is 5.1 liters per hour "capability on the original CSV.
Ok, the stock 2.0L injectors from the chart in this thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9932607
....are listed at 191 cc/min. 1 cc = 1ML. Thats 11.46 liters per hour at 3 bars.
So we have an idea of the difference between the CSV output and the main injector output. Its a little less than half.
So divide that by feeding four cylinders during cold start....and the CSV is giving roughly 1/16th volume of fuel for each cylinder during its enrichment cycle.
I'm going somewhere with this...
So....what if we could just get rid of the CSV and do the enrichment with the four main injectors?
How would we do that?
So.....let me tell you about some strange Bosch systems just to get your mental juices flowing. In the Saab cars in the 80's...mainly with CIS injection....they played around with two seperate enrichment systems but I am only going to describe 1 of them here.
The first was tied into the Lambda system that triggered off of the 02 sensor. When engine temperature and intake temperature were "X"...they had a fifth injector....just a real fuel injector....not a CSV valve.
It sprayed all the time....but it sprayed into a socket it was screwed into in the fuel injection RETURN line.
So...they were feeding about 10-15 psi too much volume/pressure all the time. The constantly open injector was bleeding that pressure off into the return line to keep fuel pressure "normal", When the ambient temp sensor and 02 sensor said...."we need more enrichment for cold start"....it either CLOSED that injector all the way or pulsed it....raising fuel pressure...increasing fuel dosage.
So.....why could we not find a way to trigger the four main fuel injectors...double time them....outside of the normal triggering cycle from the ECU?
A similar example...D-jet does this with its throttle valve switch. The injectors are firing in pairs triggered every 180* of distributor rotation...but when you stroke the throttle there are 10 contact points for each pair of injectors....and as the throttle opens from say 0 to WOT...each pair of injectors gets "triggered" 10 times per throttle plate stroke....in addition to any triggering being done by the trigger points and ECU...giving extra enrichment only as the throttle plate is in motion.
Its an analog to the accelerator pump of a carburettor.
Just for "imagineering" sake....what would happen if we ran four extra wires to the system. One for each injector on the positive side. So each injector positive has two wires crimped into its female connector.
These extra wires go to a relay....that relay is turned on by the thermo time switch....but its supply of the positive to the four injectors is broken by a magnetic switch that allows all four to pulse only at engine rpm speed....90* out from where the coil signal comes from for the ECU.
The positive to the relay comes from the positive that fed the original CSV.
So when its cold enough and you start the engine.....you get normal running along with an extra pulse in between until the original CSV voltage is curtailed by the ECU....and then you are just running on normal injections.
For that matter though....I think I posted this here or in another thread a while back...you can buy motorcycle fuel injectors that put out about the right amount that are smaller than the original CSV. Just make a mounting for them and plug them in.
Ray |
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Abscate
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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You would have to remove it but stuck closed is far more likely
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frankvw
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Location: Holland, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:04 am Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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Hi, thanks for the reply:
"The CSV is grounded through the TTS (thermal time sensor) so if the TTS sensor is bad the CSV will not work."
but maybe my question was not clear enough.
If the CSV does NOT click when putting power and ground on it from external source, that would mean it is stuck. How do I know (in-car) if is stuck-open or stuck-closed ? Or is that only possible to check out of the plenum ? |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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| frankvw wrote: |
this topic was very helpful and learned alot.
Question to the CSV-group here: I am in the middle of new injection wireloom and rebuilding teh injoectors and new fuellines. (
1978 Ljet T2b 2.0 USA Injection)
Afer I took out the old wireloom, I not
iced that the wire to the CSV was broken, so it did never work like that.I had some issues with cold start, it takes a while to start, so that symptom is now problably explained too.
I tested the CSV in car by attaching power to the CSV, but no click like on the noral injectors. This makes me believe that the CSV does not work.
A new one is hrd to find and/or very expensive, so I did carefully read the posts on pro-active detach teh CSV, but in that case, it looks important to find open if it is stuck open or shut before I will reattach the new wiring. Is there a way to do that ? I guess take it out of the plenum and then start the car cold and see what it does ? What are your opinions ? |
The CSV is grounded through the TTS (thermal time sensor) so if the TTS sensor is bad the CSV will not work. |
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frankvw
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Posts: 52
Location: Holland, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:57 am Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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this topic was very helpful and learned alot.
Question to the CSV-group here: I am in the middle of new injection wireloom and rebuilding teh injoectors and new fuellines. (
1978 Ljet T2b 2.0 USA Injection)
Afer I took out the old wireloom, I not
iced that the wire to the CSV was broken, so it did never work like that.I had some issues with cold start, it takes a while to start, so that symptom is now problably explained too.
I tested the CSV in car by attaching power to the CSV, but no click like on the noral injectors. This makes me believe that the CSV does not work.
A new one is hrd to find and/or very expensive, so I did carefully read the posts on pro-active detach teh CSV, but in that case, it looks important to find open if it is stuck open or shut before I will reattach the new wiring. Is there a way to do that ? I guess take it out of the plenum and then start the car cold and see what it does ? What are your opinions ? |
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mr matt
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Location: southeast Pa
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right |
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Yes, that does not sound like a cold start v.
Mine failed, I was able to start the bus, but it idled very rough until it warmed up, once warmed up.. it was ready to go....
agree with SG, be good to check vacuum leaks..
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