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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23120
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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The Rustoleum is an odd product chemically. It has qbout 25% hydrochloric acid......which is,killer for removing rust....and hea will cause emough hydrogen embrittlement to cause flash rust. I have no idea why they include phosphoric acid in the mix.....as with that much HcL....there will likely be nothing to convert until after the part is dry.
The akleenatrip product has 40+% phosphoric acid. It should work as well as Ospho. Ray |
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c21darrel
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8236
Location: San Dimas
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theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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I just gave this product a try and prefer it over Rustoleum Rust Stripper.
[img] http://www.kleanstrip.com/images/made/uploads/products/PrepEtch_300_268_80.JPG [/img]
http://www.kleanstrip.com/product/phosphoric-prep-etch
It does not flash rust at all compared to Rustoleum RS if you forget and let it dry. They both dissolve rust about the same. Apparently the Muriatic acid in the Rustoleum is the issue there. Prep and Etch is really thin so you have to deal with that.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23120
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
If You've seen one Rust Bucket, You've seen em all.  |
Up here in the Midwest...like we all pretty much are....its "rust pail"...not "rust bucket"
Read down a bit here http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4141
Ray |
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theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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If You've seen one Rust Bucket, You've seen em all.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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lqqkatjon
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2013
Posts: 64
Location: St. Cloud, MN
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| Thanks for the info. living in the midwest any all all information on any type of rust fighting is good information to know! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23120
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I have dropped off the bay forum because |
Rust is Rust here at the Body/Paint forum. That's why I like it here.  |
so true! Ray
He means....that here in the body work forum.....or any generic technical forum.....no one gets their panties in a wad if you are talking about solving a generic technical problem...... in this case rust conversion.......if you use an example or product that is not specific to a vehicle TYPE (like bus, type 3 or 411/412).
In other words .....one could spend a page conversing about the finer points of rust converting......on their fleet of 57 Chevy's......and its still relevant to any vehicle on earth.....and the denizens of this forum wont squeal that its off topic because its the wrong vehicle type. Ray |
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63 vwnotch
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 764
Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I have dropped off the bay forum because |
Rust is Rust here at the Body/Paint forum. That's why I like it here. |
what rust?? please elaborate.... |
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theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| Quote: |
| I have dropped off the bay forum because |
Rust is Rust here at the Body/Paint forum. That's why I like it here.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23120
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| good to see you're still around here Ray, I noticed you've dropped off the bay forum for quite a while. I enjoy reading your stuff, it's usually quite informative. |
I have dropped off the bay forum because its a little too non reality based for me. Also its mainly a forum where the primary tech answers are given by a very narrow, close knit group , some of which do not put up with technical suggestions, technology or input that may use examples or materials from other VW types or other automobie types.
Though some .....but not all....of those people are highly experienced and skilled.....many answer based....sometimes. ... solely from "belief", lore and old expriences that are not always proven.....just inferred.....and do not like dissenting views to their opinions at times....even if they are backed up by fact or data.
Too many on the bus forum.....have the habit of getting bitchy and shutting down a conversation that in their opinion is using technology or an example from another car type....because its not "bus" based....or in THEIR opinion....is off topic.....even though the technology offered is spot-on useful for the problem at hand......as if the forum is there for their range of opinion only.
I can hang with all of that....because the people in question have a lot to offer, are "generally" experienced and intelligent. But one or more of the moderators.....have the habit of only watching the backs of those they know personally....instead of being equal and judicious when an argument breaks out....and using their moderator power to censor.
I think that sucks....so rather than put up with lop sided moderation.....I just stay out of that particular trailer park. I actually have little or no interest in buses.
I do have interest in the wide range of technical parts manufacturing solutions the buses may need....because I am already working on many of them for 411, 412 and other cars (parts molding, plastics, vacuum forming pressure molding etc.).....and I have a big interest in type 4 engines and solutions for longevity and difficult parts acquisition.
I find it amazing how many questions in the bus forum come up....and go unanswered. ...or poorly answered....by the powers that be on that forum. ..simply because they do not know the complete history of the type 4 engine and/or what has already been done......in other arenas.....because they ignore it because in their mind its not "bus based".
Its easier just to spend valuable time elsewhere rather than argue with a biased moderator....partly because being a moderator is a time consuming job and I generally will pat them on the back for their time and effort.
Ray |
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3342
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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good to see you're still around here Ray, I noticed you've dropped off the bay forum for quite a while. I enjoy reading your stuff, it's usually quite informative.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23120
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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I was digging around during an answer to the "rust converter in Canada thread"...and learned something I should have seen a long time ago...regarding the differences in Jasco and Ospho. Thought I would post the quote here.
Rust Check has less Phosphoric acid (listed as 15% to 30%....than Ospho which lists 45%.
But....Rust check also lists about 7% Tannic acid which is also the other chemical that does really well for converting. Some information notes that tannic acid converted rust...which is ferric tannate....may be a little more stable and rust resistant than those that use only phosphoric acid.
You should try some and let us know how it works.
Also....interestingly enough...I have noted that Jasco prep and primer is listed ...and appears to be so.,...about 2.5X stronger than Ospho.
In reality...its NOT a higher concentration.....its just more EFFICIENT.
Jasco lists 37.5% Phosphoric acid.
Ospho lists about 45% phosphoric acid.
However...the difference...is that Ospho is mainly water, a polymer solution somewhere in there and the phosphoric acid.
The Jasco and several other rust converters.....also have ethylene glycol monobutyl ether.....which is used as a wetting and flow agent to make the solution PENETRATE deeper into textures and microscopic fissures....and it has this in place of a lot of the water in Ospho.
Ray |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23120
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| 63 vwnotch wrote: |
touche, you can't smell carbon monoxide and a lot of other deadly chemicals, point taken..
I did buy the metal prep and prime, used some more today and a drip hit the concrete acted like muriatic immediately and phizzed... I'm under the impression you've done your homework on this stuff and can probably recite the spec sheet so I'm going to run with the Jasco... it's a vert and has the access to heater channel at rear wheel well think I will open that up some more and prep what I can, douse a sponge in Jasco and feed it in there... was also thinking about extending a wand on a Hudson and spray it like that.. then hit it with some rust encapsulater...
seems to work good, i noticed the smell only from briefly working with it, ospho seemed it would burn your eyes if you let it without ventilation.. |
Just be sure where you are putting that Jasco full strength. If you are really trying to REMOVE all rust...yes...use it straight but mind your surroundings...and be sure to rinse it, dry it and them go back over it with diluted Jasco.
I don't like to dilute it down to ospho level which means for example adding 2.5 ounces of water to 1 ounce of Jasco.....I mix it 50/50 for dilute form. It allows it to penetrate a little bit thicker rust. Ray |
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63 vwnotch
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 764
Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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touche, you can't smell carbon monoxide and a lot of other deadly chemicals, point taken..
I did buy the metal prep and prime, used some more today and a drip hit the concrete acted like muriatic immediately and phizzed... I'm under the impression you've done your homework on this stuff and can probably recite the spec sheet so I'm going to run with the Jasco... it's a vert and has the access to heater channel at rear wheel well think I will open that up some more and prep what I can, douse a sponge in Jasco and feed it in there... was also thinking about extending a wand on a Hudson and spray it like that.. then hit it with some rust encapsulater...
seems to work good, i noticed the smell only from briefly working with it, ospho seemed it would burn your eyes if you let it without ventilation.. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23120
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| 63 vwnotch wrote: |
picked up some Jasco and used a touch of it... if going by smell alone I would say Ospho is MUCH stronger, comparing the two you could practically drink the Jasco...
From my experience with chemicals the stronger the smell, stronger the product... I'm going to do some further testing as I respect Ray's opinion and he's FAR more educated than I am regarding this issue to say the least...
It was only $7 qt. out the door at Lowes, needless to say I have gl. Ospho and 1 QT Jasco so I'm prepared to take on the world!! |
Uh.....no....good God.....read the paperwork.....and you can kill yourself that way....as stated....and you can see this in the MSDS ALONE......Jasco is roughly 2.5X STRONGER than Ospho......period.
Same active ingredient....2.5 times more of that in Jasco than there is in Ospho. The part that smells....is not even an active ingredient.
Also....be sure of what you are looking at. JASCO.....is not a product name. Its a brand name. They have about 200 products. As noted. ...what we are talking about here. ...specifically. ..is Jasco metal prep and prime. They have strong versions and weak versions like Ospho.
I have some chemicals ....one is a solvent......that have no smell at all ......that can drop you dead in under a minute. One is a paint thinner......the other is not.
The paint thinner smells like it could launch the space shuttle......and its fairly weak. The other chemical is a hexane, methanol and carbon tetrachloride mixture.....has virtually no smell......and will kill you dead with too large of a whiff.....largely because the carbon-tet EATS oxygen. Ray |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23120
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
Ray, how is it that if Muriatic acid is used ,it breaks the bond of the rust to the metal? It will more than convert it. There is conversion with the bond still being intact or maybe just the bond being broken with no conversion.
Also ,Muriatic acid will accelerate rust on the piece of metal that it was intended to remove the rust if allowed to dry. I use Rustoleum Rust Stripper and the issue with that is to neutralize it when you end a session of using it. |
Again....SOLUTION STRENGTH!
Not all acids are the same. Not only is there the sollution strength issue....there are polarity and chemical make up issues.
Let me explain solution strength:
All thats required to call a chemical an acid......is PH below about 6.5. And so I don't get this too complicated for the conversation.....PH is a direct math correlation fo solution strength. ...meaning its concentration.
If you measure PH of Muriatic acid .....without thinking about how "strong" it is....its effectively a PH of 1.0.
If you measure the PH of phosphorous acid in Jasco.....its effectively a PH of 1.0
So nothing useful there right?...same-same?
So lets add water to dilute each acid until it reaches a PH of 3.0....which while still an acid to human contact. ...is to diluted to do anything fof us.
Muriatic acid dilution requirment: it will require approximately 12,000 to 15,000 gallons of water to bring the PH of 1 gallon of Muriatic acid......from its 1.0 PH to 3.0 PH....depending on the existing alkalinity and mineral cintent of the water....  ......
Jasco dilution rate: about 50 gallons of water to bring 1 gallon of Jasco from 1.0 PH to 3.0 PH.....again...depending on water makeup.
Get it?
Muriatic acid dissolves rust because of its solution strength.....and it does not convert rust...because of its mineral mame up. Both acids are "mineral" acids.
But phosphoric acid.....is dilute/weak enough, has the right polarity and mneral ions to take advantage of the ionic bonds it breaks up in rust....to recombine into iron phosphate.
Muriatic acid is so strong it destroys the bond sites needed for a conversion coating.... ..and has no phosphate to put into the equation.
The flash rusting with muriatic acids is primarly caused by hydrogenation at the surface...combined with the smaller fact that it strips away all oils. Its technially very light hydrogen embrittlement on the surface of metal.
Ray |
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63 vwnotch
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 764
Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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picked up some Jasco and used a touch of it... if going by smell alone I would say Ospho is MUCH stronger, comparing the two you could practically drink the Jasco...
From my experience with chemicals the stronger the smell, stronger the product... I'm going to do some further testing as I respect Ray's opinion and he's FAR more educated than I am regarding this issue to say the least...
It was only $7 qt. out the door at Lowes, needless to say I have gl. Ospho and 1 QT Jasco so I'm prepared to take on the world!! |
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63 vwnotch
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 764
Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| interesting to hear about the jasco, I thought it would be a joke... funny how other rod forums and the like seem to praise Ospho as the end all be all.. I've used SEM before and had I known it was stronger would have went that route.. Maybe if I use multiple coats of the Ospho it will make one coat of SEM or Jasco?? |
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theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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Ray, how is it that if Muriatic acid is used ,it breaks the bond of the rust to the metal? It will more than convert it. There is conversion with the bond still being intact or maybe just the bond being broken with no conversion.
Also ,Muriatic acid will accelerate rust on the piece of metal that it was intended to remove the rust if allowed to dry. I use Rustoleum Rust Stripper and the issue with that is to neutralize it when you end a session of using it.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23120
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
Ray,what's the point of a phosphoric acid based product when it barely removes rust anyways? Is it supposed to remove rust and suspend it in the protectant when cured? 
Could Muriatic acid be brushed on before a rust converter? |
Because phosphoric acid...CONVERTS rust to iron phosphate.
Iron phosphate....besides being THE BEST primer for paint and coatings known to man...better than ANYTHING.....will not rust again...EVER...IF...IF...you can keep it dry and IF...its coating is smooth.
Also...they are not designed to be rust REMOVERS. They are rust CONVERTERS. Totally different thing.
The very best usage for a phosphoric acid product is after mechanical rust and paint removal...and after the clean metal is allowed to flash rust.
This is why phosphoric acid is best used to kill thin surface rust in joints and seams and covert wide ranging flash rust....where you cannot reach or grind.
Phosphoric acid does not...BARELY remove rust.
Ospho...and other weaker phosphoric acid mixtures barely remove rust.
In fact...Jasco....full strength...removes CRUSTY rust almost as well as muriatic acid. While its solution strength is still lower than muriatic acid....its 2.5X the solution strength of Ospho.
Heavy and thick rust should be removed by either mechanical means...or with something like muriatic acid....which will dissolve rust right down to metal.
The hazards of muriatic acid though....are that is must be rinsed and neutralized carefully. There are areas you can't use it if its going to run into areas you cannot reach or rinse. So..you can't just use it for every rust situation.
Also...and this is a big risk....using muriatic acid and also high solution strength phosphoric acid solutions...in enclosed areas....like inside of the cars passenger compartment....because the fumes of these products are literally acid vapors.....can shred your wiring connection system as it attacks brass and plated surfaces...and also aluminum parts and chromed surfaces.
Ask me how I know ... ....in the past I screwed up some serious parts. You can finish your work rinse, neutralize, rinse...mop up all the liquid and think you are home free. Come back a month later and notice that all of your fuse block contacts and every contact on the back of your instruments...is corroded to hell.
The fact that some people are selling products like Ospho as rust removers....which they will do...eventually...if you pour enough on it for long enough...which means $$$...in their pocket....is just selling a good product for an unintended use to make money with it.
The issue with rust converters...is that as they work to dissolve or convert rust .....their PH is neutralized by the chemical process....which means they no longer work.
So if you have rust .010" thick....any phosphoric acid product...unless its got a high enough solution strength to dissolve away about .007" of that rust...will kill itself before it gets more than about .003" into the rust. At that point as it dries and oxygen gets into the mix it converts that .003" range of rust it penetrated...into black iron phosphate.
However....you still have .007" of rust underneath...which contains enough moisture and oxygen to keep rusting for quite a while.
This is why Jasco works so well. Its STRONG...so is Rust Mort. You really have to pay attention as you use it.
If you have a thick patch of rust in an area you just cannot grind....and want to neutralize it....start brushing the Jasco on and work it around. Observe as the rust gets thinner and dissolves away. When you still have rust and you are down very near the surface.....grab the air hose and blow the Jasco off. Then take a small brush and rewet it with diluted Jasco...about the same strength as ospho.
Let it dry....24 hours...completely. Then come back with a small sharp dental pick. Prick the converted area. If clean metal is underneath with no red rust in between the black surface...you are done. Wipe it down with acetone and apply a primer. It will last forever.
If red rust shows through....time for another round. Ray |
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