A 1.8L 412 engine build thread

[raygreenwood]

[Backtotheeightiesagain]

Hi,
This has been the genuine best info I have ever had for the work I'm doing.
And ive now been through hundreds of pages.
Others own companies so don't share info for business reasons.
Can we have the part number please for the crower springs?
Especially if OK for hydraulic cams.
They didn't get back to me.
Also the retainers too?
Thank you.

[raygreenwood]

Update 5-23-2021

Ok…a little more detail on the heads.

During my conversation with the machinist when I was picking these up….he “said” these were a five-angle valve job (very nice…. but is more than necessary).
I was chatting with him last night and he looked at his notebook and noted…no…these are standard three angle with a slight back cut and swirl polish which is just fine!

By the way….my lighting sucks in these pictures. None of these pictures does these heads justice. I will get it worked out.
I miss my old shop area in Des Moines….I had a lighting rack over where I worked.

Here is the 1 & 2 head with the valves out:

Intake and exhaust seats

The rough looking area between the ports is from the lighting on a very shiny area where light wire wheeling was done. My lighting sucks.

The work looks excellent! The seats have only a small amount of ledge and good overall blending.

The valve guides are right at 8.0mm ID or 0.3149” and the valve stems are right at 0.3125” so stem to guide clearance of 0.0024”. Very good. They also had a rock of right at 0.018” which is factory best.

The ports sat for an hour filled with solvent without leaking a drop.

Then after reassembly…I was checking the valve stems to make sure they were even with my steel rule….and I saw something I was not happy with.
Big gaps…much lower tips on the intake valves…..very slight gap on exhaust valve tips

…….and then….DUH-H-H…I realized my steel rule was sitting on the valve cover rails!

I have had this problem before. I always meant to find an 8” machine rule and buy it to keep just for this...but always forget. So…I dug out my trusty small granite plate…which is as straight on the edge as my machine rule and far smoother. Its 7.5” wide and just long enough.
You can see the 0.0025" feeler gauge between teh granite and teh valve tip in this pircture.

Yes…the intake valve tips on both heads are VERY slightly lower than the exhausts….but measured out at 0.0025” low and dead equal to each other. That is no problem with geometry at all.

I called the machinist and he stated that for just a couple of thousandths he did not want to lap and sink the valves any lower on the intakes….just for that.

The valves have perfectly concentric lapping rings /marks.

New Manley 42mm intake valves on left, old (but unused) Ivam 41mm intake valves on right

Other items:

The springs that came on these heads were very good quality, but they had very small rust pits on them. They were going to be thrown into a rim polisher for a short time and then into a hot oil vat. They would have been just fine to use.

However, the machinist noted that looking at the cam specs, the usage of this engine and the fact that the Manley valves are lighter than the Ivam valves in the head….they had a little too much tension on them.

They had ~ 125-128 lbs on the seat with the old spring set. This is what Len Hoffman states he uses on hydraulic lifters with the same Crower spring set these are using.

Len stated a while back that on cams like the Web 73 or Web 142 at 110-115 pounds on the seat and at 0.430” lift they have 192 lbs.

These are set up at 113 to 117 lbs on the seat.

I sent with the heads a new set of springs and keepers that I had that came in my Raby 9550 kit. I said he could use those if needed. They are the same set of Crower springs from the type 4 store that HAM Inc uses with chromoly retainers.

The machinist also noted that they have a slightly reduced diameter which is good for keeping them off of the walls of the valve spring seat pocket…reducing wear….but also for safety he stepped the valve guide boss a bit.

You can see the differences between the springs and retainers here in these two pictures. The one on the left is stock the one on the right are these.
Here is the difference in the springs.

The new ones are 1.235” on the left and the old ones on the right are 1.350”.

So far, these heads look excellent! I will move on to the #3/4 head inspection and report if there is anything different. I will post a few pics for the record either way.

Ray

[raygreenwood]

My apologies to all...especially the owner of this engine....for the long delays in progress and updates.

Along with this build I have several small parts projects that have just been waiting to post "how to's" for. These are the gas tank inlet gaskets which are finished and the cylinder head temp sensor mounting system and the rear disc brake system for my car. More on those in their own threads.

So....with the new year starting and what little business there is picking up....I also had a family member with health issues. Taking care of my mom and dad became a full time issue over the past three months and time flew by like a rocket. Things are now pretty stable and its back to work.

Take care of your family!

SO!.....


FINALLY!....after a year+ of me missing deadlines and the shop missing deadlines and getting caught in the racing season rush for the machine shop I was working with.....the cylinder heads finally are done and in my hands....and they are VERY nice!

Over the next two nights I will pull each valve and take detailed pictures....not because I do not trust the shop....but I want to document the work...and...I dont trust ANYONE!

So just some teaser pictures for the moment:

These are 47.5cc chambers. This will allow an 8.12:1 compression ratio with an 0.040" deck and no head gasket...and no step in chamber. This will run very well and probably make an honest 90-92hp.

The valves are a five angle, seats are blended to heads. The springs are Crower that come in the type 4 store Kit for the 9550 and 9590. They are slightly smaller in diameter than the ones that came in these heads....which is better for less wear on the flanges around the pockets and they had better tension characteristics.

More to come shortly!

Ray

[raygreenwood]

[vamram]

Bump....
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
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Save the Supers!!

[orwell84]

If you ever get some extra time, it would be great to see how you measured the case, especially bores and mains. Nice write up.

[raygreenwood]

[RWK]

whoops, fat fingers!
_________________
73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[RWK]

Nice, and keeping with that theme, of course special tin or al. bronze valve guides. Seat bores, bored on precision mill, with a boring head or CNC circular interpolated to insure hole roundness, and location, after above guides are inserted and each location indicated in to zero, no piloted drill press cutters should be used here,
Knowing you like data see this website regarding bronze alloys and there use's, no proprietary crap here, that don't fly in industry, enjoy, should be a great build, good luck.
https://www.anchorbronze.com/single-post/2018/02/13/C90500-Tin-Bronze-for-Valve-Guides
_________________
73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[RWK]

Nice, and keeping with that theme, of course special tin or al. bronze valve guides. Seat bores, bored on precision mill, with a boring head or CNC circular interpolated to insure hole roundness, and location, after above guides are inserted and each location indicated in to zero, no piloted drill press cutters should be used here,
Knowing you like data see this website regarding bronze alloys and there use's, no proprietary crap here, that don't fly in industry, enjoy, should be a great build, good luck.
https://www.anchorbronze.com/single-post/2018/02/13/C90500-Tin-Bronze-for-Valve-Guides
_________________
73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[raygreenwood]

[RWK]

They look great, alum bronze for intakes and BeCu for exhaust ? I assume the seat pockets will be machined oversize to true up, how much over did you get the seats,? can you go deeper also, say .005-.010 also to clean up, or do you have limits?
_________________
73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[raygreenwood]

Update 1-17-2020:

This is a very short update. New valve seats finally came in today. I got the mail too late to get to the machine shop. Maybe they are in tomorrow. For sure Monday!

Very nice parts! Almost too pretty to install!

Hopefully the heads will be done in about a week. Everything is waiting on them!

More to come!
Ray

[raygreenwood]

Yes! These are not 100% berrylium free. They say about 2%. Low enough that virtually no risk for machine work but just enough with the copper and other metals to have bery high heat transfer, moderate work hardening and very uniform heat expansion. Ray

[RWK]

Very nice build info Ray, see this link for copper alloy seats and such, I use these mat'ls extensively in plastic injection mold building that I do, great transfer of heat and it's hardness is good also. I plan to play around with making some seats with it, only because I have it left over from jobs, and don't want the associated problems that go along with heavier press fits of steel seats. Their mat'l are beryllium free however, (for safety in repair and machining),so may not work harden as much. The mat'l is aka Ampco 940 and 945.
I have dealt with them for over 30 years and they are very responsive, only recently they have got into motorsports.

http://moldstar.com/MotorsportApplications.htm
_________________
73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[raygreenwood]

A short update- 12-19-2019.

My apologies to the owner I am building this engine for that this is taking so long. Really it’s stalled on the heads.

The heads are moving along but they were kind of an in between job at this very busy but EXCELLENT machine shop and between me being in and out of town and traveling internationally from about April until my largest contract ended in November…whenever the machinist had time…. I was out of town. Whenever I had time they were in the middle of a production push.

OK…so some of the last pictures I posted will be re-posted to point out some details. I took some pictures last week with the valve seats pulled. The machinist has had some questions and concerns. There is nothing wrong with these heads and the castings. They will be excellent. However the degree of detail from when these were rebuilt about 10 years ago…..is disappointing (considering who the shop is)…and it’s what we will be correcting.

The gist is that these are 1.8L heads for a 412/914...and were remade for a bus.
The issues:

1. It appears according to the machinist….that either generic valve seats that are smaller than stock in the ID…...or even 1.7L valve seats were installed.

These seats were then “throat cut”…basically plunge cut or hand cut through the ID…to open them up. It left a VERY thin margin on the OD. With the type of metal these are…..which “appeared” to be a ductile iron seat…which are not ideal for air cooled…this thin margin (not much mass in the seat)…makes it hard to keep the seats in the head over time.

With the seats still in:

Seats out:

2. The machinist noted….that this is one of the common mistakes people make with rebuilding air cooled heads. Trying to get off cheap or not so much cheap…but with less work/effort…and not wanting to really machine seat ledges oversize. Yes…it is a concern…. realizing that its a critical operation because there is not much meat in these heads. Its one of the common reasons why seats fall out with heat cycling.

But putting in an undersized ID seat and throat cutting …is poor form. Cutting out excessive material….changes the temper and surface tension of a seat that has been installed with an interference fit. It will technically “loosen” the OD interference fit as the head and seat heat cycle.

3. To add to this, the ledges should have been cut with a chamfer in the corner to collect any chips or swarf that collect as the seat is pressed in. It appears that the intake seats still have the original factory chamfer but the exhaust were not cut with a chamfer.
The alternate and more common method is to chamfer the outer corner edge of the seats to leave a space behind it. Some shops do a little of both and work hard to keep the seat bore walls smooth to minimize the issue. The exhaust seats had a sharp edge.

So what level of workmanship do I expect from this shop? I am also putting in some pictures of my heads done by this same shop back in maybe 99 or 2000.

Mine are on the left. Next to them on the right are a set of stock, low miles head cores with stock valve size from a 1.7L out of a 412 so you can see what’s been done.

These are my old heads that will be rebuilt for my engine next year, are 1.7L heads but have 42 x 36 valves with high nickel alloy seats. These heads have had minor porting and valve unshrouding. They really needed to be flycut.

The unshrouding and port work created about 1.25 to 1.5 cc of extra volume. With the removal of the head gasket and shim I kept right at 8.0: or 8.1:1 compression ratio. A little low…but with everything else I did…web 73 cam….injection tweaks and better ignition and exhaust…it still ran fantastically. When I redo them…and do a little piston and deck work it will be 8.5:1.

Note how well the exhaust seats are blended

This is the intake seat detail. That thin shiny line is not a ledge sticking out. It’s the visible edge of a chamfer on the inner edge of the seat ledge.

Another view of the intake seats and intake unshrouding. The nicks from installing valve guides are not from this shop.
At about 70k miles I had a pushrod problem and had to have guides replaced on one head. It was my mistake and not a build quality issue. A different shop in Dallas installed the guides and left the marks.

This is a factory core head. Look at the big nasty ledge under that intake seat.

Undercut visible on both intake and exhaust factory seats showing that they were hand deburred before seats were installed.

Anyway…enough about my stuff. These pictures are just in this thread to illustrate what better workmanship these 1.8L heads will have.

So….we were speaking about valve seats last week. What to put in them. Yes….the stock factory seats were good. The high nickel alloy seats my heads have were harder, stiffer and machine smoother and handle a little more heat.
It was noted that on the 914’s and 911’s they have worked on (and yes those were for road racing)….they like to put in seats that can handle over 1400° F….that are cast to the proper ID and OD sizes so they do not have to be cut excessively risking changing the shape.
ACVW and Porsche are already a high heat application potential….mainly high constant heat. Not like a top fuel car or something…but they have their own heat issues.

Of course it was noted that when they use titanium valves…in a perfect world they like to use beryllium copper alloys. Pulls more heat out of the titanium which does not conduct heat as well as stainless.
Of course…we are not using titanium valves but are using damn good valves. And…Beryllium copper would be nuclear weapon level overkill …and a pile of cash…..and totally unnecessary. However it was mentioned that they have been having very good results in 914’s with some special alloy seats from CHE precision.

These alloys have a few percent beryllium copper but are a proprietary nickel, silicon, chrome and copper alloy (which is actually/technically a “bronze” seat).
They have been documented to pull heat out of stainless valves at a rate of about 2X that of normal nickel or iron seats…and therefore keep their expanded size better and require a little less interference fit. A bit more expensive but it’s what we are going with. They are cast in the correct size…only need a little ID blending. They should be arriving around January 12th…so I hope to have the heads ready to final flycut to set compression ratio by the third week of January.

So this is what we decided we are getting for seats. The exhaust and intake will be different alloys. They list them as their B-1 and B-2 alloys.

So in short…the work done to these heads about 10-12 years ago…was better quality than the factory….machine work wise. However some of the techniques….while adequate….are less than what SHOULD be used. The parts used (valves, seats and springs) were probably about equal to or slightly better than factory.

The machine work to put the step in….was not needed for this application and not correct for this application…and could have been a little smoother but was just fine.

The Manley valves we are putting in, type 4 store spring kit (possibly....although the springs already in these are pretty damn good) and the much better seats with better machine work should make these stellar heads.

More to come! Ray

[raygreenwood]

4-22-2019

A short update:

I must apologize this is taking so long. Lots of in and out of town, moving…winter….damn!

I have had these heads over a year and myself and the busy machine shop personnel have been playing “in-town/out of town/missed the window” tag.
We finally all arrived in the same place on Saturday.

So….the cylinder heads.

I do not have many pictures just yet. More to come.

These heads were rebuilt maybe a decade ago and never used. Just shrink wrapped and waiting.
We ALL know how that goes…..projects get delayed!

They were rebuilt by …let’s just say one of the top type 4 shops out there. And I will say…overall they look excellent…quality and work was excellent. However….there were a few errors….that have mainly to do with THIS APPLICATION.

The VW 412 1.9L engine is essentially…identical…. in every way to the 1.8L Porsche 914 engine. Identical.

Compression, heads, cam, pistons, injection, ignition, valves, output etc. However while that does not make it ideal…..it definitely is NOT a bus 1.8L type 4 engine…..yet that is what application they built these heads to.
So the owner sends heads to shop…and instead of shop thinking….412 or 914…they think “bus”. It’s possible they never asked.

So…they put in new guides, valves, springs…and a minor step cut. This is NOT the normal step cut of .028” to .032" that you see newer head castings with.
This is a thinner 0.011” step….with the chamber floor flycut at a slight cant/angle…to increase deck volume while not taking much out of the bowl.

This GREATLY increased the chamber volume.

They did a few things quite well though:

1. As you can see in the picture below…they shaved the boss on the cylinder side of the head. This is good…in the respect that there is not that much room to go fly cutting in these heads before the cylinder fin contacts the head fin. And with the variations from cylinder make to make….that can get risky.

Here is why shaving that boss is good.

The lip on these 1.8L cylinders is 0.278”.

The same lip on my 1.7L Mahles is 0.275”

The bore depth in the 1.7 and 1.8 heads is normally about 0.250”….which means that had they not shaved the boss…the fly cutting that was already done would cause interference between cylinder and head fins.

Right now from the step to the machine outer boss is 0.226”. That leaves me 0.052” to play with. They will machine 0.026” from that leaving 0.024” between cylinder and head fins. If I need more I can shave a little more.

2. The seat work was good…not perfect…but good. The valve job is just basic…very good…but with a single angle on the exhaust. The seats could have been blended at the port slightly better.

3. It appears from the new machinists comments (and markings on the head)….who are used to building some very high end engines so they think critically about everything they measure…even on simpler engines like this….that the throat of the exhaust bowl was milled slightly during seat install…”throat cut” as it’s called. It increased the exhaust bowl to valve diameter ratio to 91.3%...which is a little better than average for the street.

So far all that has been done in this picture is some minor floor smoothing, CC’ing ports, chamber and bowls and measuring everything.

The valve bowl throat sizing will be done again as the exhaust valve is brought out to 36mm. Keeping as close to 90% as possible is excellent for a street engine the machinist stated. They know far more about heads than I do.

An important key will be sourcing valve seats that are correct for the valve size and have as much open center area as possible. This is a common problem on cheap replacement seats….that may fit say…a 34mm valve….but end up being so thick in cross section that they restrict actual “valve curtain” or seat flow diameter to as small as 25mm….before even subtracting the stem diameter.

4. The hardware on these heads…the springs appear to be Iskenderian brand. Good quality.
Retainers are stock replacements. The valve guides are accurate....technically..…but not perfectly smooth inside in the whole length.

Machinist stated that this is pretty common and has to do with the type of hone used. It’s actually a type of diamond “broach” as it was described to me…that…wobbles a little through the guide while expanding it. They have better equipment.

These springs have a few very small rust blemishes. They are going to be REM polished and checked. If they don’t pass…I have a brand new set of Crower springs that came in a cam kit for a very similar cam from the Type 4 store.

Valve guides are critical on everything…but much more so on air cooled.
The valves are not slouchy….but just basic good replacement level made by Ivam (Italy). Stainless with hardened tips. Very thin chrome on the stems. Not bad...not great.

In this picture you can see the thin step. The surface grinding to the floor and around the valve seat was the current machinist removing a small amount of metal…so he could see how the seat was installed. It was the install method that they were not totally happy with. It was noted that it appears the seat was slightly counter sunk and then the surrounding metal was peened in…which is “A” way to do it….but it could be better.

So…what is coming up:

The biggest problem…..is that the fly cutting that was done…has left the chamber volume with the step…at about 54cc. That’s huge.

And….with no other changes of additions…..meaning no cylinder shims or seals…that would leave the .024” deck we currently have and the 8.5cc piston dish and the .011” step….which means a compression ratio of 7.53:1.

While that IS better than the miserable 7.3:1 this engine came with….which ran hot….it is also the absolute extreme of deck that you can use in an engine like this…that also runs hot. Risky.

So….I am shooting….ideally….for

1. New 1st oversized guides from Automobile Atlanta are on the way.

2. Manley Racemaster 42mm x 36mm arrived a few months ago. 5 angle valve job.

3. New seats and proper minor unshrouding and matching

4. Fly cutting to remove the step of .011”…and a further 0.015” for a total flycut of .026”.

This will give a deck of .039”…and I will add right at .001” for sealing compound. So deck will be .040”.

In a perfect world that will give a chamber volume of 47.5cc (doubt it)…which will give a compression ratio of 8.12:1.

More likely we can hit a chamber volume of 48.5cc. With the .040” deck that is 8.01:1. Far more respectable than 7.3:1.

It may improve also because the larger valves and new valve margin will dump a ½ to ¾ cc…maybe.

Here are my cheat sheets for compression ratios if anyone can use them:

More to come! Ray

[RalphWiggam]

Nice man. Gives me flash backs to when my deck heights were not making sense.

[raygreenwood]

UPDATE 2-23-2019

So…I took the pistons and cylinders off and measured a few things. I found the missing 0.007” from the deck height on the 3 and 4 side…right where I thought it would be. The crank bore was of-center by .007” from the factory.

And…it’s also off-center not just in X and Y…but in “Ө”…meaning if you are looking at the engine from the top of the case…cylinders going outward side to side left and right.

It is off about 0.001” skewed…from one end of the crank to the other. Its really common…and insignificant.

In other words….looking from the top….the flywheel end of the crank is about .001” closer to #3 and the opposite end is the same amount closer to #2.
Using my crude but effective piston pin puller/pusher tool to remove the pistons.
Actually the garage temp wear nearly perfect today and I could simply push the pins in with some effort….but getting them out is easier with this.

So here is the 3 and 4 side of the case…the one with the 0.017” deck height… with the dial depth gauge centered in the center main bearing bore.

And after the gauge is “0”…I switched to the 1 and 2 side center main bore…..and….there is the 0.007”. Its .007” shallower than the 3 and 4 side.

And here is the flywheel end main bearing bore on the 1 and 2 side….0.006” more shallow. The crank is at a skew angle by about .001”

NOTE: I buy most of my measuring tools new. I’m not rich so I save up or trade work for tools. But I have bought a few “ebay” tools.
Most are never as well kept, clean or accurate as advertised. I prefer pawn shop tools where I can check the action.

But…this Baker dial depth gauge set was worth every penny of the $45 I spent on it on Ebay. I bought it just for this type of work…doing main bearing saddles. It has paid for itself many times.

This is the 1 and 2 side of the case and how much more shallow the bores are.

With a granite plate beneath the spigots they are all level within that 0.001” we see end to end with the crank skew.

I have a diamond lapping plate I may surface the case openings with to get it dead even. It’s just not enough to make it worth decking the case when it’s this close. It’s flat and parallel.

I will have to see what I can get for shims. It may be worthwhile to lap the 3 and 4 side down to an even .015” deck so shims are easier to get spot on.

More to come! Ray