Rear springs type?

[raygreenwood]

[Hawker]

Hello Ray,

I am just looking at your data on rear spring, lengths and diameter measurements and noticed a possible error. What is the uncompressed height of the early sedan cars? You have it down as 135mm where the others are in the late 300mm range.

BR,

Rob

[Hawker]

Hello Ray,

Thanks for your reply.

That will be the KYB KG5410 Gas adjust, I guess? When I get the old girl running again I think I will treat her to a pair! 👍🏻

Many thanks, Rob

[raygreenwood]

[Hawker]

Hello Guys,

Just to keep this thread going on the original topic of rear springs. I thought I would add to it.

About 15 years ago I discovered a broken rear spring. The possibility of obtaining new or any from a scrap yard seemed remote. The car is a 411LE 4 door saloon. So, I replaced them both with rear springs from the Variant. The variant was always more popular because of its load carrying capacity here in the U.K. and South Africa.

Variant rear springs with the standard oil rear shock absorbers are still in the car, although it has sagged a little at the rear. I haven’t run the car for over 10 years now, but this 411 and 412 section of thesamba.com has reawakened my enthusiasm for these cars.

Thanks to Ray and his soon to be revised suspension book, I will be upgrading the front suspension to use the Audi inserts, once this Covid19 nonsense is over. I may even go further and start using the car regularly. Rob

[Hawker]

Ray,

That will be just great. With clarification even I should be able to follow the revised edition of your suspension book. Thank you!

Rob

[raygreenwood]

[Hawker]

Hello Ray,

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. I get it now. I think I was getting confused reading your book. Ideally any modification should be safe, but future proof, (AUDI shock absorber inserts and non bonded bushings), look the same as the original set up and use as many of the visible original non wearing parts, as possible; to look right.

The confusion set in as I am trying to separate the experimental parts of your “book” with what I currently have (1972 411) set up and the fitting and modifications required to install the KYB 365008 Gas/Oil shock absorber inserts.

I like to keep things looking as original as possible with all my cars, but I know that modernising improvements are a worthwhile route to take with safety critical components as any new/original replacement parts are either unobtainable or NOS parts degraded by age.

Thank you for sharing your research results. It is much appreciated. Rob

[raygreenwood]

Those are bonded rubber bushings. They are technically for the middle years super beetle.

Let me explain that:

One would generally say that super beetle only had an early and late.....most people calling those bonded rubber bushings with the much higher quapity ball bearing.....in your picture....early.....and the ones with the replaceable bearing/bushing cartridge or.....sperate bushing and bearing cartridges depending in what company made them......as "late".

What the middle and late units had in common with LATE 412.....is the mounting plate having an "assymetrical" bolt pattern like the one in your picture.

The difference being that all 411 and the early 412's had a strut mount that was just like that one in your picture.....same bushing and bearing......except that the mounting plate was completely round.....and the 3 bolts were exactly 120° apart. This is also what I call early super beetle.

There were a very few of the earliest super beetles.....that had the round plate, bonded bushing strut mount with bolts 120° apart.....I have only seen two complete cars in person.....but actually found a pile of about 5 cars worth of struts....about 30 years ago.....in a MASSIVE VW salvage yard in Oklahoma called lexington auto salvage.

I was thrilled....because at first glance I thought they were 411/412 and I needed the bushings. I quickly found....because some of the struts were still attached to ball joints and control arms.....that they were type 1. But.....the bushing/mount assembly was the same so I got four of them and it kept me going for about 3 years.

But.....that is the total extent in my lifetime of seeing super beetles having the same round symmetrical, bonded bushing/bearing assembly as the 411 and early 412.

I can only surmise....that these were from first year, early production....1970.....super beetles. Since the idler arm bushing was also from 411....it would not be out of the question that starting off an existing part # for strut mount was used on some supers as well.

In the two super beetle cars I saw with the round strut mount.....the mount fit the holes perfectly and the hole pattern was symmetrical....so there is no chance these were supers using the earlier bushings by being modified.

So if you have a 411....and need the early bonded rubber bushing....the assymetrical bonded bushing in your picture.....from what others have noted....can fit inside of your strut tower. Personally.....I found that the mounting plate needed a little grinding on the corners.....and of course you will have to drill perhaps two holes at a different spacing.....to use that bushing.

The later super beetle strut bushing.....with the replaceable insert bushing and bearing assembly......has a slightly shorter plate....so will fit inside of the strut tower with no grinding to the corners of the bushing plate.....but the center hump of the metal plate is larger in diameter.....IIRC.........and that is when you need to trim the center hole metal a little. I will have to look that up though to be sure.

At this link:

https://www.mtmfg.com/vw/3289/Volkswagen-Beetle-Struts-Strut-Parts

You can see the bonded bushing you are showing is for super beetle 71-73

Below that you can see the later one for August of 73 to 79. The difference in the mounting plate size is small. But IIRC....the difference in the center hub is the issue. Its not a huge difference either way.

If you are looking at my front strut "book".....do not be confused by what you see done to mine. There was a long train of mods done to the strut mounts over ahout 200k miles.

1. The first thing I did was slot the mounting bolt holes for the original round, bonded, symmetrical bushings. This was an attempt to get more castor angle into the front suspension.
I drove daily in high cross winds at 70 mph for many miles and the lack of castor was killing me. It only had about 0.9° from the factory.

Finding that was not enough....it got me to about 1.2°.....which WAS an improvement and pointed out that I was on the right track.....but I could not get much more.

2. As I was starting to develop the Audi strut cartridge mod around this time.....I also was running out of bonded strut bushings. This was pre-internet....and bonded, symmetrical 411/412 bushings were unobtanium.

But I could get late 412 bushings easily. However the fit required a little grinding.

So since I was going make modifed struts anyway....and was looking to get just,short of an inch of lowering.....and try be able to use the late 412/super beetle assymetrical mount.....and did not like how high the late platd rose up or the fact that I would be grinding AND drilling holes.....and the fact that the nifty plastic strut top covers my 412 had....would no longer fit.......

I just decided to make the hybrid welded version that installed the dome from the late 412/super strut mount onto the early, round symmetrical strut mount.

Not being very good at welding yet.... .....the hybrid strut mount ended up a little fatter than I planned so ....I had to grind out more of the center of the strut tower than I planned. However it all came together well.

So there are several ways you can go.

Personally.....even though bonded bushings are now readily available....I would never go back to a bonded bushing. Ray

[Hawker]

Hello Ray,

Thank you for the reply. You mean these then? Rob.

[raygreenwood]

[Hawker]

Ray,

Is there an alternative to changing the strut top on the 70-73 cars and removing material from the body tower pressing for the strut mounting. I would prefer not to hack away at the body. Rob

[Hawker]

The KONI equivalent is the yellow 8610-1262Sport insert with “fully adjustable valving for use with lowered springs”, apparently. Rob

[raygreenwood]

Thank you!

Very nice list! Its good to have this list because......if there are any companies that for some reason may be making a replacement cartridge for a car that is still prevalent somewhere in the world......and it is identical to the original on the inside to our ORIGINAL struts.....but has a totally difgerent part number due to some trivial adaptable difference.......like the KYB shocks for the rear which outside of some lower bushing side shims.....is the same as Ford econoline 150......

Then this could be useful for those just wanting bone stock peformance who do not have the time and effort to do mods. Ray

[Hawker]

Gents, Hello!

I have been reading through the 411/412 section of this site and it has reignited my passion for my 411LE. I have actually owned two, both 72 and my current car is one of the last 411’s. I am very interested in all the work Ray has done with these cars and especially the front suspension upgrade. Excellent work. Here is a table of equivalent front shock absorbers to the KYB 365008’s. I’m not 100% sure it’s accurate, but I decided to do some research today. Either way, I will choose the KYB units as Ray has done some thorough testing.

[raygreenwood]

[bmarkstopspeed]

Ray - curious, is there in fact a “stock” replacement (one that actually fills up strut) insert available from KYB ?? While I’ll probabky go thru the mod, I would like to simply replace the inserts for time being but everything I’m seeing is too short to fill up the strut.

Please advise....

[raygreenwood]

I will have to look in my old receipt files to be sure...but those are probably replacement oil strut cartridges made by KYB. They were mostly blue.

They quit making these parts in 1998 or 1999. They were actually pretty good replacement struts. The issue...like the Boge and the Monroe and the Gabriel factory replacement cartridges....were that they were diligently made to be the same exact valving as factory...which was inadequate for rebound.

So they drove great right out of the box...but if you seriously drive the car a lot...they would beat the crap out of themselves on rough roads. Not that you would feel it...but it made for short life span.

Back when I could buy these new in high school and college...I never got more than 30-40k out of them before the "banging" started...as the struts would unload explosively on rebound on rough roads.

The oil can be from one or both of two places.

1. The original factory struts....were "wet bath"..external oil reservoir type....meaning what you really had was a complete double tube shock absorber...without the outer tube. The strut unit was submerged in a pool of oil inside of the strut housing. It had an 0-ring seal and valve assembly at the top. Very complex fluid path.
They were fantastic quality. Just superb manufacturing. If the oil never leaked out...you could get 100k miles from them easily.

Many times when the dealer or shops replaced struts with cartridge style like the KYB...they just dumped out the oil from the factory strut and didn't bother drying or wiping it out so you have some oil residue inside.

2. If the top seal around the rod on the KYB cartridge is leaking...and they usually are....it gets oil down inside.

As for where to buy the Audi strut cartridges.....

First...DO NOT buy them on Ebay. You have no idea how old they are. Just like brake parts....struts and shocks have a shelf lifespan due to degradation and aging of the outer seal...and also due to leakage of internal gas from one side of the unit to the other.

Second.....the ONLY brand/model I can subscribe to....are the KYB GR-2 gas/oil shocks...which are now called the Excel-G.

Its not that they are probably the only shocks that will work...its that the valving is complex on struts...and I have found that exact strut cartridge with its gas/oil combo, valving and pressure...to work excellently. I have no idea how the others will work or what their valving is.

As I noted in the "how to" I went through over 50 struts playing with valving. I actually think I just got lucky with the Gr-2's from the Audi. That experimentation might have gone on for years.

It really does make about a 200% increase in handling and road control....and does not beat up the ball joints.

Buy your struts from a local Flaps that has some age limits on parts....and you can go back to them if they sell you something old that is leaked out on gas etc. Also....you are not really saving much money on Ebay.

For example...the KYB Excel-G 365008 cartridges are about $59 at Oreilleys each. Most of the cartridges you see on ebay...are not far off of that in price.

Also important...if anyone is selling you an "Excel-G"...and the color is silver....those shocks are VERY old....like about 6 years at least because they changed teh color to black years ago. Too old to be using a gas shock that has been sitting on the shelf.

But....all of that being said....if you can get known to be brand recent build...Sachs shocks for example....and feel up to some experimentation....it would be nice to know if they work as well as the KYB Excel-G...to give people some more "known" choices.
Maybe in a year when my car is back on the road....I might try a set just for comparison.

If you or someone else has already done teh Audi mod with teh KYB Excel-G...and know the feel and characteristics...I say...yes...go ahead and try another brand of the same gas oil strut cartridge. With foreknowledge...you can then compare.

But until I have tried them or someone else with the mod has....I just cannot recommend anything else but the Excel-G. The worry is not that another brand will not work...but that if it is too stiff....it will damage the ball joints...which are hard to get now.

The Excel-G's are a known quantity to me. I put 89,000 miles on a set with this mod. Ray

[bmarkstopspeed]

Ray - got it ! Yes, I read thru all of the Audi mod document.....very thorough, but had to take a double look that it was a strut insert for Audi 4000 on the parts.....I decided to open up my struts today and here's what I found (see pic) - can't imagine these were original but could be wrong.

KC4019
SH23
Made in Japan

NOTE - There is a bit of hydraulic fluid that was inside the strut when opened....I'm assuming that's from the strut seal leaking and therefore would need to be replaced (not wetness).

If that's the case, are any of these a proper swap out to Audi inserts ??

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Front-Suspension-Strut-Ca...:rk:7:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Audi-80-90-4000-New-Boge-...:rk:4:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Front-Strut-Insert-For-19...rk:10:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Audi-4000-Quattro-08-1984...rk:15:pf:0

[raygreenwood]