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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| ekacpuc wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| ekacpuc wrote: |
Changed the guide.
I cored it out but let a tiny bit at the exhaust port end. Used a burr grinder to take the lip off at the spring end. Pushed it towards the chamber with a 3/8” bolt. Measured the hole with one of those split ball and a mic. Miced the old guide to verify it was the same size as the CB guide.
Then I heated the head up in the oven @ 400 degrees and I coated the guide with a thin layer of anti seize and left it in the freezer over night. Pushed the new guide back in and it had good resistance even playing with the heat. Didn’t have the boss break either.
Used lapping compound to check the alignment then double checked it after I lapped all the valves in with layout die. Nice even sealing surface.
The empi bench valve spring compressor needed the hole for the rod opened up. Also needed to modify the edges that hold the valves in so they didn’t scratch the chambers. I just hit them with a 36g flap wheel and softened the edges after. Also the beehive retainers are on the small side so I used a large washer to bring the diameter down where it pushes on the retainer. It might have been okay as is but with the washer I at least knew it wouldn’t be pushing on the spring instead of the guide. I did for the record expect it to be modified..
Pretty easy. I have had guides on new heads back out. That’s why I had almost all the stuff to change it. I did try the gene berg modified drill. Might have been easier? I kinda remember the reamer having an issue leaving enough meat at the chamber end of the guide to support a bolt to push the guide toward the chamber.
Imo it doesn’t make sense to pull the guide out or push it towards the springs. There was still just a touch of carbon on the end of the guide and I didn’t want it ruining my press fit.
Anyways just a update incase anyone searches to do the same thing.
Oh and I also have a adjustable reamer incase the inside of the guide was a little tight. I don’t think I needed it but the guide was just a LITTLE tight. I think it would have been perfect for an intake but I figure a exhaust could use a little room for expansion due to heat. The guide was the same before the install.
Thanks for the input. |
Typically new guides going into heads...you need to be careful of the interference fit and of the temperature. Typically (and it varies with the guide material type, head type etc.)....a .0015" to .002" interference fit at about 220*F.
Not saying what you did is wrong or will not work. However the risk of "shrinking" guides into the heads at tighter than necessary interference fit is that as they heat cycle many times...they expand and squeeze at a greater rate and the metal in the guide boss can fatigue faster. In some heads it can actually work against you by causing the guides to get loose faster.
Ray |
Yeah I wondered too. I was around .0017 when hot and just under .002 at room temp. I pulled them out just after water would sizzle.
If they have issues later it’s no sweat. I watch lash closely and will keep an eye on the guides. Just have to make it a couple months. I don’t expect issues though. I ran the last set a long time after I replaced guides.
And someone will say I did it wrong because I didn’t take it to a machinist lol. Just during my search people made it sound like rocket science and no one did the same thing as me (ruin a guide myself on semi fresh heads). |
NOT saying you will have a problem BUT watch it closely. .002 is not enough for me for feel warm and fuzzy inside. Did you also hone the ID of the guide after installation? Ok, just missed that you said it needed "a little" In My experience, you want the ID to need honing as that means you have a good amount of crush from the outside.
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ekacpuc
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| nsracing wrote: |
shops normally charge double if you work on it first.  |
Haha!
I let then sit with water in chambers all night. No leaks. I also shot air into the ports looking for bubbles.
I don’t trust shops. Figured if it didn’t work mini wedge ports or perhaps CNC’d panchitos would be in my future. Really like the tims though and everything I ordered was based on me using the tims stage 2. Super stoked to finish it. The last of my order other than shims and pushrods arrive tomorrow (hopefully).
Work is slow right now too so it’s the perfect time to put together a 2332. Here in a couple weeks I’ll be on a 80+ hour a week schedule for the foreseeable future. |
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9745
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| shops normally charge double if you work on it first. |
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ekacpuc
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| ekacpuc wrote: |
Changed the guide.
I cored it out but let a tiny bit at the exhaust port end. Used a burr grinder to take the lip off at the spring end. Pushed it towards the chamber with a 3/8” bolt. Measured the hole with one of those split ball and a mic. Miced the old guide to verify it was the same size as the CB guide.
Then I heated the head up in the oven @ 400 degrees and I coated the guide with a thin layer of anti seize and left it in the freezer over night. Pushed the new guide back in and it had good resistance even playing with the heat. Didn’t have the boss break either.
Used lapping compound to check the alignment then double checked it after I lapped all the valves in with layout die. Nice even sealing surface.
The empi bench valve spring compressor needed the hole for the rod opened up. Also needed to modify the edges that hold the valves in so they didn’t scratch the chambers. I just hit them with a 36g flap wheel and softened the edges after. Also the beehive retainers are on the small side so I used a large washer to bring the diameter down where it pushes on the retainer. It might have been okay as is but with the washer I at least knew it wouldn’t be pushing on the spring instead of the guide. I did for the record expect it to be modified..
Pretty easy. I have had guides on new heads back out. That’s why I had almost all the stuff to change it. I did try the gene berg modified drill. Might have been easier? I kinda remember the reamer having an issue leaving enough meat at the chamber end of the guide to support a bolt to push the guide toward the chamber.
Imo it doesn’t make sense to pull the guide out or push it towards the springs. There was still just a touch of carbon on the end of the guide and I didn’t want it ruining my press fit.
Anyways just a update incase anyone searches to do the same thing.
Oh and I also have a adjustable reamer incase the inside of the guide was a little tight. I don’t think I needed it but the guide was just a LITTLE tight. I think it would have been perfect for an intake but I figure a exhaust could use a little room for expansion due to heat. The guide was the same before the install.
Thanks for the input. |
Typically new guides going into heads...you need to be careful of the interference fit and of the temperature. Typically (and it varies with the guide material type, head type etc.)....a .0015" to .002" interference fit at about 220*F.
Not saying what you did is wrong or will not work. However the risk of "shrinking" guides into the heads at tighter than necessary interference fit is that as they heat cycle many times...they expand and squeeze at a greater rate and the metal in the guide boss can fatigue faster. In some heads it can actually work against you by causing the guides to get loose faster.
Ray |
Yeah I wondered too. I was around .0017 when hot and just under .002 at room temp. I pulled them out just after water would sizzle.
If they have issues later it’s no sweat. I watch lash closely and will keep an eye on the guides. Just have to make it a couple months. I don’t expect issues though. I ran the last set a long time after I replaced guides.
And someone will say I did it wrong because I didn’t take it to a machinist lol. Just during my search people made it sound like rocket science and no one did the same thing as me (ruin a guide myself on semi fresh heads). |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23336
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| ekacpuc wrote: |
Changed the guide.
I cored it out but let a tiny bit at the exhaust port end. Used a burr grinder to take the lip off at the spring end. Pushed it towards the chamber with a 3/8” bolt. Measured the hole with one of those split ball and a mic. Miced the old guide to verify it was the same size as the CB guide.
Then I heated the head up in the oven @ 400 degrees and I coated the guide with a thin layer of anti seize and left it in the freezer over night. Pushed the new guide back in and it had good resistance even playing with the heat. Didn’t have the boss break either.
Used lapping compound to check the alignment then double checked it after I lapped all the valves in with layout die. Nice even sealing surface.
The empi bench valve spring compressor needed the hole for the rod opened up. Also needed to modify the edges that hold the valves in so they didn’t scratch the chambers. I just hit them with a 36g flap wheel and softened the edges after. Also the beehive retainers are on the small side so I used a large washer to bring the diameter down where it pushes on the retainer. It might have been okay as is but with the washer I at least knew it wouldn’t be pushing on the spring instead of the guide. I did for the record expect it to be modified..
Pretty easy. I have had guides on new heads back out. That’s why I had almost all the stuff to change it. I did try the gene berg modified drill. Might have been easier? I kinda remember the reamer having an issue leaving enough meat at the chamber end of the guide to support a bolt to push the guide toward the chamber.
Imo it doesn’t make sense to pull the guide out or push it towards the springs. There was still just a touch of carbon on the end of the guide and I didn’t want it ruining my press fit.
Anyways just a update incase anyone searches to do the same thing.
Oh and I also have a adjustable reamer incase the inside of the guide was a little tight. I don’t think I needed it but the guide was just a LITTLE tight. I think it would have been perfect for an intake but I figure a exhaust could use a little room for expansion due to heat. The guide was the same before the install.
Thanks for the input. |
Typically new guides going into heads...you need to be careful of the interference fit and of the temperature. Typically (and it varies with the guide material type, head type etc.)....a .0015" to .002" interference fit at about 220*F.
Not saying what you did is wrong or will not work. However the risk of "shrinking" guides into the heads at tighter than necessary interference fit is that as they heat cycle many times...they expand and squeeze at a greater rate and the metal in the guide boss can fatigue faster. In some heads it can actually work against you by causing the guides to get loose faster.
Ray |
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ekacpuc
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Changed the guide.
I cored it out but let a tiny bit at the exhaust port end. Used a burr grinder to take the lip off at the spring end. Pushed it towards the chamber with a 3/8” bolt. Measured the hole with one of those split ball and a mic. Miced the old guide to verify it was the same size as the CB guide.
Then I heated the head up in the oven @ 400 degrees and I coated the guide with a thin layer of anti seize and left it in the freezer over night. Pushed the new guide back in and it had good resistance even playing with the heat. Didn’t have the boss break either.
Used lapping compound to check the alignment then double checked it after I lapped all the valves in with layout die. Nice even sealing surface.
The empi bench valve spring compressor needed the hole for the rod opened up. Also needed to modify the edges that hold the valves in so they didn’t scratch the chambers. I just hit them with a 36g flap wheel and softened the edges after. Also the beehive retainers are on the small side so I used a large washer to bring the diameter down where it pushes on the retainer. It might have been okay as is but with the washer I at least knew it wouldn’t be pushing on the spring instead of the guide. I did for the record expect it to be modified..
Pretty easy. I have had guides on new heads back out. That’s why I had almost all the stuff to change it. I did try the gene berg modified drill. Might have been easier? I kinda remember the reamer having an issue leaving enough meat at the chamber end of the guide to support a bolt to push the guide toward the chamber.
Imo it doesn’t make sense to pull the guide out or push it towards the springs. There was still just a touch of carbon on the end of the guide and I didn’t want it ruining my press fit.
Anyways just a update incase anyone searches to do the same thing.
Oh and I also have a adjustable reamer incase the inside of the guide was a little tight. I don’t think I needed it but the guide was just a LITTLE tight. I think it would have been perfect for an intake but I figure a exhaust could use a little room for expansion due to heat. The guide was the same before the install.
Thanks for the input. |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23947
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| I will not use tight lash caps. Ive never seen a set of heads that had them that they did not fuck something up..... as for the looses ones being too loose for your likeing.... have ytou ever seen the oe fors lashcaps on the old small blocks??? the stems are 11/32"( .341) the end of the stem is machined down to probably 7 mm( .276") the lash cap fits like it's almost .020" too loose... and they work just fine. Ive taken 3/8" lash caps and bushed them down to 11/32" to use on my personal engine because.....my last set 11/32" lashcaps went on SOMEBODY ELSE's ENGINE!!! and I had lots of manley 3/8" lashcaps in stock. I never had any issue with them. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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You guys all realize that the head is cut for dual springs, right? Depending on how thin the guide boss is, putting in an larger OD guide will most likely crack that. What does he do then? Run over to the guide boss store and then pick up a cutter for dual springs from Ace?
Also, if one guide comes loose, my philosophy is to replace EVERY guide. Why? Because the future cost of NOT doing that, having another guide come loose and then grenade the engine is VERY high compared to changing guides now.
Sure, it may be just fine replacing one and the engine may run for hundreds of thousands of worry free miles.....but what if it doesn't?
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3668
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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The Berg coring drill is the best way to go. I have had mine for 30 years and has paid for itself many times. Can be re-sharpened, drills out enough of the guide for easy removal, does not walk off center and drill into the head, maintains the guide holes original size and shape. Cheap insurance to not screw it up. Good that it is the exhaust, if the boss is damaged you can just put in one of those dummy bosses which will fit my beehives. On the exhaust side there is plenty to hold the guide in place even if the boss is damaged, no need to weld it up. That is not to say go ahead screw it up, just be careful to keep the head as original as possible.
Dan |
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RWK
Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 1642
Location: S.W. MI
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| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:18 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Easy way to get guide out is to drill it out from the rocker side just a little larger then 3/8 but don't go all the way thru, stop 3/8- 1/2 from chamber side, tap the guide on that side for 3/8-16 and screw in a bolt, then from rocker side drive guide out by putting a punch on the bolt you screwed into the guide. May have to drill larger to the boss on the rocker side to get head off guide. You won't damage head boss this way.
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ekacpuc
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| frenchroast wrote: |
| ekacpuc wrote: |
| The valve wiggles more than it should. |
I had the shop knurl the guides on my last rebuild and got good mileage out of them. You could do that or a new guide. Either way, if you're lucky, the valve will line up with the seat but you'll probably need to have it cut. I'm rebuilding my heads again (100k+ miles) right now and am putting in new guides. I'll ream the new guides and will either have a shop cut the seats or do it myself with some neway cutters. |
Yeah I was looking into the cutters actually. It’s just one seat lol. I like to learn, even if I don’t do the work myself. Watched a couple videos of some guys fixing seats on new heads. Sure doesn’t look too tough to me.
There’s no machine shop in town. Looks like the last one closed down.
No automatic transmission shop either. I rebuilt a C6 transmission when I was a kid. After some people found out I did small jobs and actually paid for the tools I bought and made a very small profit. Was fun. Knowledge and tools aren’t a bad thing. |
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frenchroast
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2019
Posts: 708
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| ekacpuc wrote: |
| The valve wiggles more than it should. |
I had the shop knurl the guides on my last rebuild and got good mileage out of them. You could do that or a new guide. Either way, if you're lucky, the valve will line up with the seat but you'll probably need to have it cut. I'm rebuilding my heads again (100k+ miles) right now and am putting in new guides. I'll ream the new guides and will either have a shop cut the seats or do it myself with some neway cutters. |
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ekacpuc
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Thanks. I found the kit on a US website.
I’m gonna just change the guide. Not a lot of faith in any machine shop. None in town (literally) so I have to ship. I contacted a few and wasn’t super impressed on top of shipping to/from Alaska is expensive and slow. I’ll pay what I have too but I have a hard time paying someone to do something that I can do myself. Tools are useful most of the time.
Where I work there is a machine shop. I’ll find out what tools they have though just incase.
I don’t see what the benefit of the liner is other than you don’t have to worry about breaking the guide boss. Is that what it is?
If I did break the guide boss they just tig it right? With very low heat I’m not sure if it’d distort the head but it doesn’t seam like that big of a deal. I’m a welder
I have the reamer to core the guide, a punch for 8mm guides to push it in and out and a adjustable reamer to adjust the clearance inside between guide and stem. I’m gonna go for it. Only the one guide. I also have access to a machine shop if I needed (industrial) so there is a couple hydraulic press there but I’m more comfortable with a hammer.
I’ll check the alignment after I change the guide. If it’s off I’ll send it in. If it’s close I’ll lap it. |
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7926
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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ekacpuc
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| how is it effed up? |
I grabbed onto the lash caps with a pair of vice grips and tried persuade it off with a 2lb hammer.. it was a bit of a side hit. I had been working on it forever. This was after I used a compressor to get the keepers out. I thought/hoped the force from the springs would help me pop the cap off.
I actually had to cut it with a burr grinder and use the vice grips to squish/break the caps. I should have tried this first. Luckily I only used the hammer on the one.. |
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ekacpuc
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
What Dan said.
If the heads are cut for dual valve springs, which I assume they are, I would repair the giude with a K line insert unless the guide is totally molested. |
Where might I find one? I’ll do a google but incase I don’t find it.. |
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ekacpuc
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Doing one sounds wise. The rest feel good. It’s exhaust.
I was gonna core it but I’ll look into the liner
You can see it’s just a bit out of round in bottom pic at top guide towards right. The valve wiggles more than it should. It doesn’t look out of round in the exhaust port end. Valve wiggles more than it should though.
I prob shoulda got a puller.. I had empi caps mostly. I bought CB and empi at same time. Figured the CB was too tight and went to use the empi ones but I lost two empi so I used the CB against my best judgment for the two..
Last edited by ekacpuc on Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7655
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| Post some photos |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23947
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| how is it effed up? |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3668
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
What Dan said.
If the heads are cut for dual valve springs, which I assume they are, I would repair the giude with a K line insert unless the guide is totally molested. |
Yes that is also a very good way to go. Dan |
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