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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| Nitramrebrab72 wrote: |
| Yes I agree ,the original T25 handbrake (especially the pre '83 ones)needs a lot of regular attention to keep it upto pare. |
I agree, VW slipped up with this one.
W. |
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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| jlaudin wrote: |
Do you have the part number for the Jetta/Golf brake cable. Nothing online shows the same barrel end connector as shown in your photo.
Thanks!!!! |
It took some time and searching to find the correct cables. The part no is #: 191-609-721-f-int. By some or other reason the cable length and fittings on both ends varied from different suppliers. In the end I took the old cable, caliper, balancer bar and cable guides to local suppliers. Eventually they found the correct cable that matched what I was looking for. Once again, the part no on the packaging was different from the part no in question.
W.
Last edited by willem maas on Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jlaudin
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Omaha, NE
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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Do you have the part number for the Jetta/Golf brake cable. Nothing online shows the same barrel end connector as shown in your photo.
Thanks!!!! |
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Nitramrebrab72
Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2018
Posts: 832
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| Yes I agree ,the original T25 handbrake (especially the pre '83 ones)needs a lot of regular attention to keep it upto pare. |
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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 5:36 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| Nitramrebrab72 wrote: |
Very nice job!!! Extremely professional but is it the right upgrade for all Vanagons ???
I have a T25 Westfalia totally original as regards wheels ,brakes, tyres, that weighs in at over 5000lbs.
Going down the mountain roads in the pyrenees mountains and also at Mont Ventoux which is the longest stretch of extremely steep road in Europe. Used by European car manufacturer BMW Jaguar just to name a few, to test their new cars (especially the brakes) where BMW have broken new pre introduction cars it is tough!!!!
After doing the mountain descent many times I have found the following.
Engine braking is a must at all times!!!
The VW recommended grease in the front bearings can not stand upto the excessive heat and will lead to premature bearing failure on the pre 83 smaller wheel bearings, but not the rear drums as they don't get as hot.
Also found that the front to rear braking balancing is very well designed by VW and any extra rear braking will lead to premature rear brake lock up, very important especially in the snow so will be needed to be accompanied by better front brakes.
The above leads me to believe larger front disc set up seems a lot more crucial than a rear brake upgrade as VW SouthAfrica (on their 5cyl high powered engines) came to the same conclusion that the harder you brake or the steeper the hill the more load is transferred on to the front brakes and removed from the rear.
Putting more heat braking on the front discs but also removing heat from the rear making for cooler rear drums the steeper the hill but obviously due to longer time spent with the foot on the brakes on steeper hills will lead to hotter overall brakes but pro-rata the steeper the hill the cooler the rear drums will be.
Also Redline CV2 extra high temp wheelbearing grease saves my bearings in the mountains. |
Thank you for your comments.
I think there is no "right" upgrade for Vanagon brakes. It all depends on what your specific requirement is. Vanagons and all other vehicles are factory fitted with properly (supposedly), engineered and tested braking systems to comply to a minimum industry standard. The main advantage of brake discs is that heat generated is much easier dissipated. The steep mountain passes your traverse will be a nemesis for any vehicle’s braking system regardless of discs or drum brakes fitted. I fully agree that engine braking is a must in such adverse conditions.
I did the disc brake conversion for future ease of servicing and to have a proper functioning parking brake. VW South Africa chose wise to upgrade the front brakes to the larger ventilated brake discs. Obviously, a large percentage of braking power is done by the front brakes. The proportion valve ensures that wheel lock-up at the back does not happen when braking hard. I believe that the rear wheel disc brake conversion will have a greater effect on the Vanagons with the smaller non-ventilated discs fitted to earlier models.
To further improve braking power, a larger diameter brake booster can be installed. Larger diameter brake discs and dual piston calipers all round will most likely increase braking power. On some forums it is argued that wider tyres will also improve braking performance because more rubber on the road means more frictional resistance. I am not sure about this reasoning thou..
W. |
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Nitramrebrab72
Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2018
Posts: 832
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 4:18 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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Very nice job!!! Extremely professional but is it the right upgrade for all Vanagons ???
I have a T25 Westfalia totally original as regards wheels ,brakes, tyres, that weighs in at over 5000lbs.
Going down the mountain roads in the pyrenees mountains and also at Mont Ventoux which is the longest stretch of extremely steep road in Europe. Used by European car manufacturer BMW Jaguar just to name a few, to test their new cars (especially the brakes) where BMW have broken new pre introduction cars it is tough!!!!
After doing the mountain descent many times I have found the following.
Engine braking is a must at all times!!!
The VW recommended grease in the front bearings can not stand upto the excessive heat and will lead to premature bearing failure on the pre 83 smaller wheel bearings, but not the rear drums as they don't get as hot.
Also found that the front to rear braking balancing is very well designed by VW and any extra rear braking will lead to premature rear brake lock up, very important especially in the snow so will be needed to be accompanied by better front brakes.
The above leads me to believe larger front disc set up seems a lot more crucial than a rear brake upgrade as VW SouthAfrica (on their 5cyl high powered engines) came to the same conclusion that the harder you brake or the steeper the hill the more load is transferred on to the front brakes and removed from the rear.
Putting more heat braking on the front discs but also removing heat from the rear making for cooler rear drums the steeper the hill but obviously due to longer time spent with the foot on the brakes on steeper hills will lead to hotter overall brakes but pro-rata the steeper the hill the cooler the rear drums will be.
Also Redline CV2 extra high temp wheelbearing grease saves my bearings in the mountains. |
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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| SplitBusVanatic wrote: |
wonderful post.
thank you for doing this and documenting it so well.
would you ever consider offering these for sale ? |
Thank you. If this kind of purpose made bracketry was my fulltime job I definitely would make and sell the brackets. The main reason I made the brackets and did the conversion myself is because kits are not available in South Africa. Our poor exchange rate to foreign currencies make an on-line purchase very expensive.
W.
Last edited by willem maas on Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| Detrar wrote: |
What a wicked write up. Thank you for the time you put in to show us what you've done  |
Thank you. I took a lot of pictures during the manufacturing process. The ones I uploaded mostly covers it all.
W.
Last edited by willem maas on Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SplitBusVanatic
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2005
Posts: 355
Location: Co. Mayo. Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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wonderful post.
thank you for doing this and documenting it so well.
would you ever consider offering these for sale ? |
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Detrar
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2012
Posts: 2
Location: Victoria,BC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| What a wicked write up. Thank you for the time you put in to show us what you've done |
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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| Crankey wrote: |
Nice work !
I don't know about anyone else but there are a lot of pictures missing in your post here.
Judging from what is showing up I best they're really cool pictures with a lot of info so maybe you'd want to look into it and upload your images to the samba gallery.
I don't think I have that same caliper. I think the go west kit has calipers from a eurovan but the look bigger from the outside, could be some of your missing pictures.
The only issue I have with the kit on my truck is the parking/emergency brake. It feels weak at 2 clicks and it's hard to pull 2 clicks, you can feel the handbrake lever actually bend to the side when it pull that hard.
Still, with my driveway having roughly a 5° slope the park brake will slide just a little as the vehicle rocks as I get out. There's just no way I'd ever parallel park on a sloped street.
I could be wrong but I think it's the lesser leverage clamping on a smaller diameter section of a disc as well as the lesser gripping area of pads vs shoes.
To me it's just been easier to find a level street to park on than make sense of all the different methods of fixing park brake force. The garage at home is level and parking at work is level so that's 95% of my life right there. |
Thank you.
It appears the missing pictures were resolved.
W.
Last edited by willem maas on Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| calsurf wrote: |
| Impressive, nice work. |
Thank you.
W.
Last edited by willem maas on Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| OlisGarage wrote: |
Wow, just WOW! Super nice work. Thank you for also including the diagrams!
Looks amazing.
Finally, some of your pictures aren’t loading for me. Most did though. But wow, such great work. |
Thank you.
Knowing beforehand what this entailed I wanted to do it as accurate as possible so that I would not need to redo it.
W.
Last edited by willem maas on Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| kamzcab86 wrote: |
  
Very impressive! And a whole lot more work than I put into the conversion project [I simply bought GoWesty's kit  ]. GW's kit does include dust shields. The very first release of their kit, however, did not include the shields and my dad's Westy's rear disc got rock damage as a result.  He contacted GW and they sent him dust shields to install. |
Thank you.
The kit was too expensive for me (after converting to ZAR). That is why I made the brackets and did the work myself.
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| All images were uploaded to The Samba gallery; the ones that didn't show up in the initial post had been deleted from the gallery (perhaps due to being duplicates). I went through and fixed the broken images. |
Thanks for fixing the uploaded photos.
W.
Last edited by willem maas on Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| Kdj wrote: |
| That is fantastic fab work using minimal tooling! Thanks for the detailed drawings. For someone with the skills to do this, you have created detailed how too. Again great post |
Thank you. An end-mill and lathe would have saved me a lot of time.
W.
Last edited by willem maas on Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| calsurf wrote: |
| Impressive, nice work. |
Thanks.
W.
Last edited by willem maas on Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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willem maas
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2022
Posts: 13
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| MsTaboo wrote: |
Welcome to the Samba.
Nicely done first post.
I really like the SA big window buses, especially the new cabin/engine vent on the D pillar. Too bad SA didn't build the Syncro this way. |
Thank you. The SA version of the T3 is an absolute pleasure to own and drive. Even more now with the upgraded rear disc brakes.
W.
Last edited by willem maas on Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:12 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Kdj
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2017
Posts: 257
Location: Naptown
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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| That is fantastic fab work using minimal tooling! Thanks for the detailed drawings. For someone with the skills to do this, you have created detailed how too. Again great post |
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 8434
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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Very impressive! And a whole lot more work than I put into the conversion project [I simply bought GoWesty's kit ]. GW's kit does include dust shields. The very first release of their kit, however, did not include the shields and my dad's Westy's rear disc got rock damage as a result. He contacted GW and they sent him dust shields to install.
| Crankey wrote: |
I don't know about anyone else but there are a lot of pictures missing in your post here.
Judging from what is showing up I best they're really cool pictures with a lot of info so maybe you'd want to look into it and upload your images to the samba gallery. |
| OlisGarage wrote: |
| Finally, some of your pictures aren’t loading for me. |
All images were uploaded to The Samba gallery; the ones that didn't show up in the initial post had been deleted from the gallery (perhaps due to being duplicates). I went through and fixed the broken images.
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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OlisGarage
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2022
Posts: 237
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon / T3 / T25 Rear wheel disc brake conversion |
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Wow, just WOW! Super nice work. Thank you for also including the diagrams!
Looks amazing.
Finally, some of your pictures aren’t loading for me. Most did though. But wow, such great work.
_________________
1981 VW Vangagon TDI (in progress)
1984 VW Rabbit Convertible (daily)
2003 VW Jetta Wagon TDI (recovering from a hit and run) |
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