Another no start starter problem. SOLVED! Bad hard start relay!

[Busfixer]

Rorke - I just had very similar symptoms on my ‘88. Finally narrowed it down to the two #53 relays in the little waterproof box above the coil on driver’s side of engine compartment. Intermittent crank but no start issues over the last 3 days. Also died in the middle of a 4 lane highway - started on the 10th try! After driving back to my garage, I wiggled the relays and it died. Wiggled again and it started. Replaced both 53 relays and it’s starting first time every time and no dying on the highway. Took it down a jeep road to give it the shake test and all’s well!
I carry a sack full of various relays as these Vanagon wiring systems are prone to gremlins.
Good luck, Busfixer

[wesitarz]

So order a 2-pack of relays from Amazon and keep one as a spare. Lesson learned. (not learnt)

[Rorke]

Man did I learn a ton from this thread.
I sure wish I had an assistant who could turn a key today.

[Sodo]

Dan I could have used “tenths of amps” instead of “hundreds of milliamps”.
0.2A is the same as 200mA.
Which 0.2A or 200mA,,,, is an acceptable drop on 10 amps (2%) for a wire as long as from the ign to the solenoid.

A feller could do a “voltage drop test” and qualify that whole circuit.

Voltage drop test is da bomb!
I tellya! A superpower for 40yr outdoor vehicles.
vDrop test will quantify the losses, that the hard start relay can improve upon.
If theres no (significant) losses, there is no (significant) opportunity for improvement.

However there is the “$12 ign switch” headache.

I do have a theory on that though…if anyone is interested.
But I have no proof because my van hasn’t been an ign. switch eater.
For that I’d need a switch gobbler who’s also an “anti-parts-cannon” type,
who want's to solve the problem once and for all,
but "OG" style.

Or just curious.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[kamzcab86]

[DanHoug]

[Sodo]

[tikiman71]

So the original relay that I repeatedly cycled last night is now working in the van. I'm still using the new replacement that I had on hand, and keeping the old as a backup.

My theory is that the sticky starter solenoid (which I bench tested, cleaned, re-lubed, and re-tested) contributed to the relay's fouled contacts after repeated attempts to start. All that current that was not able to activate the sticky solenoid might have resulted in carbon buildup, along with corrosion from 12 months of infrequent use outside in our moist coastal climate. While the relay is "sealed", I'm sure it is not immune from the long term effects of humidity and condensation.

I never needed the hard-start relay, on the old 2.1 or the EJ22, but I do appreciate alleviating the electrical stress on the ignition switch. As the description says:

"With this relay installed, your ignition switch will only be used to trigger the relay, it will no longer have to carry the starting current to the starter solenoid. This provides a shorter path from the battery to the starter, which ultimately provides more juice to the starter."

I still think this makes sense, even if you are introducing another potential component to fail (the relay).

So that is all from me for now. Thanks to all who helped, and are still reading. What an interesting thread this turned out to be.

Cheers,

Adam

[Sodo]

[Abscate]

If you fix your wires, you dont need to add a hot start relay.

If you cant fix your wires, you have no business putting in a hot start relay.
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🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🍊 🍊 🍊

[Sodo]

Tikiman I gotta admit I was feeling a little guilty prescribing a diagnostic task that appeared to challenge your ability.

Now I’m a little puzzled that you didn’t embrace the task right away.
Especially considering that you have the proper equipment on-hand,
and full comprehension to do it easily.

It takes all kinds I guess. I enjoy the “the why”, and the puzzle
much more than the parts-cannon.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[do.dah]

I like cleaning stuff with this, deoixt d5;
https://caig.com/deoxit-d-series/

[tikiman71]

The original relay in question in this thread, a 12 year old "weatherproof" relay with a seal, was just briefly tested. I got a satisfying click when powered across 85 and 86 using a 12V power supply. So I tested continuity between 30 and 87 when powered, and got continuity.

I then checked resistance across 30/87 when powered. Our fellow nerd friends on a TDI forum said that anything greater than 0-0.002 ohms across this connection would indicate a bad relay. I measured 5 ohms. Then I was having fun clicking across 85/86 again, because it's satisfying and that is how I have fun on a Thursday night. I checked resistance across 30/87 again: 2+ ohms. More fun clicking, more resistance checking, more clicking, more resistance checking: 0 ohms.

So it appears (to me at least) that possibly the contacts had some grime, poop, corrosion, or burnishing that got "cleaned up" with all my rapid happy clicking, and now measure little to no resistance across 30/87. I'll plug it back in tomorrow and see if it fires the starter up.

I would pop the relay open to see the internal condition, but these weatherproof relay cases are glued or fused shut. If it doesn't work tomorrow, I'll cut it open and take a look, but I expect it will likely work. I don't think I would want to rely on it as a spare, so I'll probably cut into it anyway.

Will report back in the morning...
_________________
1987 Westfalia GL

[jimf909]

Or pop off the cover to see what happening. My dad was one who would file relays as mentioned above. This poor relay was used as a horn relay unprotected and died after four years.

I had a Vanagon headlight relay fail after 10 years even though it lived a comfy life under the dash.

37 years ago I installed a headlight relay on a motorcycle that works well to this day. Most of the relays in my life have been reliable, a few weren't.

I've been playing with networked relays like the one below to control functions at home when I'm not at home. $22 for a wifi enabled relay that works on DC or AC. FWIW.
https://us.switch-bot.com/products/switchbot-relay...4837824745
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- Jim

[Sodo]

[DanHoug]

[DanHoug]

[Abscate]

[DanHoug]

so... relays. back in the day, automotive contacts including relays were repairable with simple points files. a fine grit for voltage regulators, coarse grit for ignition points and various metallic files that came in cool little leather holders to keep in the glove box.

then there's the ubiquitous cube relays. quality wildly varies from lightweight Chinese ones to really nice, heavy OE ones. then there's the Japanese ones that are small, light, and really high quality. pict of a middlin' quality Italian cube relay vs an Echlin USA headlight relay. with the cube relays it can pay to carry a spare. with the vintage ones, carry a points file.

_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[kamzcab86]