Reasonable Price for a 1600 case?

[Rome]

^ Here are 4 rocker shaft stands for a 1300+ engine. The "bevel" I mentioned above are clearly seen at the upper left corners. 40 hp rocker stands have that corner filled just like all 3 other corners. dgsaz gallery.

When installing a rocker shaft assembly with this beveled style stand, the bevels are positioned facing upward and outward. These slide onto the rocker shaft through the large holes, and are fastened to the head using the two smaller holes.

[Rome]

Crank pulley: Your engine has an aftermarket older style timing pulley with single degree marks on the perimeter.

You can insert a sturdy flat-blade screwdriver into one of the 5 holes, rotate the pulley slightly CCW until the screwdriver blade rests on the short cast ledge of the case. Then you can exert force onto the crank bolt to loosen it. IIRC the tightening torque is ~ 36 ft lb so there's a bit of force needed. Best to use a breaker bar if using a big socket.

The pulley is generically called the "Santana" style with those 5 holes. That was the name of the company which made this style pulley in the late 1960's and '70's. That style pulley was usually in a silver aluminum finish and not gold; gold was a version by either another manufacturer for some visual bling. I'd keep it to put back on the engine, since it "dates" the engine.

Rockers: The 40 hp engine utilized rocker arms that were a 1:1 lift ratio. Later engines such as 1300, 1500 and 1600 used arms with 1.1:1 ratio to get 10% more lift at the valve. The rocker shafts themselves were the same. 40 hp engines used rocker arm stands which were square at each corner; later engines had stands with a significant "bevel" cut into one of the corners. If you're building the engine purely for display/knowledge and won't attempt to start it, you can buy used complete 1300+ rocker shafts for as little as $10 each at swap meets, etc.

Pushrods and pushrod tubes for 40 hp are slightly shorter than those for 1300+ engines because the entire engine is narrower due to the 64 mm crankshaft strock vs the 1300+'s 69 mm stroke. If you try to use 1300+ tubes, they won't compress enough at the outer ends' bellows to allow the heads to be pushed fully onto the cylinder tops. Best to try to find those 40 hp specific parts at a swap meet but you must know what you're looking for. Or in the Classifieds, as the seller "should" label the parts as 40 hp.

If you find used 40 hp pushrod tubes which are dented along the length, consider using them. The metal is quite thin, so that you can insert a socket onto a long extension and try to work the dent out by leverage. Then wipe the tube clean, scuff the outer surface, and paint with satin silver spray paint for a "newer" appearance.

[luftgekuehlt]

I got the motor on a stand today and had a chance to inspect things much more closely. I was unable to find any cracks and can't see any evidence that the case has been split before. I took out a brittle rear main seal that was stamped W. GERMANY. Not sure if that is indicative of an original seal, but at least it is not overtly aftermarket. Heads have been off before and some stud washers and nuts are missing. Lots of missing parts: rocker arms, pushrods and tubes, no tin.

I was ready to go a level deeper but I need help/advice with one question: the prior owner removed the flywheel but did not loosen the pulley bolt. Do I need to install a flywheel to do this? Or is there a different option? I thought about sacrificing the pulley (which is an aftermarket aluminum one) and drilling some holes to allow it to be blocked with a bar on the ground but I feel like this is a bad approach. Is there another good way to do this? The flywheel for a 1963 40 hp would be a 180 mm/6V, correct?

Thanks -

Chris

[RWK]

Yes, 63 case, my OG 63 engine is a 778#. Often 40hp were replaced with larger engines as they became available, look closely at the fasteners they will tell the story if it's been torn down before, also gaskets may have OG marks on them, flywheel seal, gasket under gen tower, paper gaskets under cylinder, ect.
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73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[luftgekuehlt]

So here is the engine number I missed the 1st time: 8091847. If the table I used is right it should be from 1963.

[oprn]

1200cc. I see casting flash cleaned up with a grinder but no crack. Not an area that normally cracks.
_________________
Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[Rome]

That's a 1200 cc 40 hp from '61 thru '65 Beetle or Karmann-Ghia! You can tell by the flat/level raised boss for the intake manifold connection on top of the head. It looks very suitable for a tear-down and build-up exercise as it appears to be mostly complete. The tear-down sequence will be the same as for a later 1300-1500-1600 engine.

That "crack" on the corner of the case does not appear to be serious.

Make it a point to save the washers under each of the nuts for the cylinder head and the case itself during the tear-down. They really should go back under the nuts during reassembly. I've been seeing more and more people leaving off the washers under the nuts, which is a bad practice. Most of those washers under the case nuts are "wavy lockwashers" which maintain the tightening torque despite the case expansion and contraction from the thousands of heat cycles of normal engine operation.

If a nut does not break loose with reasonable force on the wrench, don't try more force. Instead, heat the nut using a propane torch until you see the nut get at least dark red in one spot from the heating. This will expand the nut and should break the rust bond, making it able to loosen with a wrench. Loosen it most of the way but don't remove it yet; let it cool down and take the remaining few turns off after spraying the nut inside threads with good rust penetrant oil. You don't want the super-hot nut falling off into your hand, or down onto the floor and rolling away.

If you want to be very tedious and thorough with the removed nuts, most of them are M8 x 1.25 thread size. You can clean off each nut by grasping it with needle-nose pliers and holding it against a brass bristle brush on your bench grinder, then running a tap of this size thru the threads to clean them up. You already have them and should reuse them instead of buying a set of new fasteners.

The larger nuts that hold the cylinder heads on are larger, thread size M10 x 1.5 mm I think.

The oil pump's 4 attachment studs/nuts should be M6 x 1.0 mm.

[Bobs67vwagen]

That looks like just what you need to start the self education process. Just below the generator pedestal what are the letters/numbers there? Thanks Bob

[67rustavenger]

[luftgekuehlt]

So I managed to buy a motor here locally for 200$. It has seen some weather. But looks to be a 1600. (113.101.101B). Lots of missing parts and heads look bad but it turns and I can't move the pulley to demonstrate significant end play.

I haggled that price as a project based on it having a crack on the left bottom corner of the flywheel side.

Now that I have it home and have brushed that point off, I am no longer sure if it is truly a crack or if something was just ground down here on the case. I am attaching some photos. If anyone has experience here, please give your opinion. Is there is a good way to prove it one way or another? I suppose by looking from the inside?

Cheers -

Chris

[Bobs67vwagen]

That sounds like a good way to begin and educate yourself. I started many years ago with John Muirs vw repair for the complete idiot manual and was able to tear down and rebuild a 40 hp by following that. The manual by Wilson will help you to remove and check each item and get you familiar with how these things were put together. Good luck-Bob

[luftgekuehlt]

Thanks everyone for your answers. I'm trying to negotiate with a local seller for a complete motor with a visible crack just to have a motor to disassemble and get into things even if it won't turn into a running engine.
Have been reading in Tom Wilson's How to Rebuild your VW Engine.
Hopefully this will start to turn into a hands on project soon. I find I can only understand so much by reading.

Cheers

[modok]

Price of decent used parts is usually about half of new

[chrisflstf]

For anyone looking at a used VW case, the Dub Shop has these cool crank and case gauges

https://thedubshop.com/vw-type-1-case-and-crank-bearing-size-gauging-tool/

[Rome]

This morning I drove to the Deutsche Classic show in Oley, Pennsylvania which is SW of Allentown. A vendor had about 10 stripped engine cases, mostly Type 1 but also a Type 3, greasy/grimy but with head studs; $50 each. I did not look at any for myself.

[Rome]

Trying to find a complete, assembled engine has some benefits.
-You can take many photos of each component while still installed for reference on reassembly in the future
-You have most of the many nuts & bolts, which you don't have to find vs finding just a bare case and then searching for the right fasteners. Find small containers with lids at the dollar store that you label with a marker for all the different components- head nuts, case nuts, intake manifold, etc.

A good repair manual which shows how to disassemble a Type 1 engine and then assess the condition of the major components is this one. It has many photos of the components and assembly techniques.

Even if you get an engine that is seized- that is, the crank pulley or flywheel won't turn when you apply force- you can use such an engine for tear-down and clean-up. Try reassembly with the parts you have/came on it just to see how things fit together, even if you don't buy any new parts for it. You can clean many parts using 2 gallons of diesel fuel in a large 5-gallon plastic utility bucket, with a parts cleaning brush and a brass bristle brush. Do this outside! And wear solvent-resistant gloves.

When you do a dry run with the reassembly, you can take it apart again, and buy new critical parts such as bearings and seals; possibly pistons and cylinders to assemble with the intent to get it running.

There's a guy who makes many YouTube videos on trying to get neglected VW engines to run- "Mustie1". He has many old engines in his stash (southern New Hampshire) and is able to work around mediocre or even overly worn parts just to see if the engine can run.

If a potential engine in your area does not rotate when you check it (take work gloves with you for the inspection), this works in your favor since you can always claim that you'll need to expend money to buy the internal parts which prevent the engine from turning. And make a lower offer than the asking price if there is a price in question.

[Dusty1]

I got an interesting case yesterday. How 'bout an AE w/ 10mm case savers, .060" over line bore, line bore is good but the thrust is pretty hammered. Poor thing has about 1/4" end play.

Another goofy feature, not the first time I've seen this: One of the case savers is a little high. This engine lived its seventh and eighth life with one cylinder a little cockeyed.

I wish I bought a few of those Brazilian phosphor bronze machine to fit thrust bearings when I saw them.


Hey, O.P.. Want a case?


I'll probably modify an AJ case or two for carburetors. I only need to drill / bore three holes in the right place.

.
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[oprn]

Yes I have no idea what the cause was. I took courage in the fact that it was under a layer of paint and grim so obviously it had been run like that for some time to no ill effect.

By the way, this AS21 has both dual relief and mechanical pump hole. Interesting...
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Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[Dusty1]

[oprn]

$250 I had already invested in the align bore so... I went for it. The case was pretty pristine in all other respects. AS21 case.
_________________
Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!