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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17830
Location: sticksville, ct.
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 Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2025 11:14 am Post subject: Re: One less Vanagon mechanic (soon) |
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| space wrote: |
Don't you find the newer cars, with the overabundance of tech, more of a pita than these luddite-mobiles? |
Waldo touched on a lot of points, one being (usually) some DIY'er hasn't had his dick beaters all up in there fucking things up and you don't (usually) have a lot of b/s repair to sort thru
The older stuff tends to have 20+ years of shit repairs that need to be addressed and the newer stuff....parts come from the dealer and fit/work properly.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9998
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2025 7:36 am Post subject: Re: One less Vanagon mechanic (soon) |
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| space wrote: |
| Don't you find the newer cars, with the overabundance of tech, more of a pita than these luddite-mobiles? |
Not really. The newer tech often helps in diagnosing issues whereas with older vehicles, often all the plastic bits break if you look at them, every fastener is seized or damaged, prior work was done in a kluge manner by DIYers who think that they can do their own work because these are 'luddite-mobiles', and many components are at the end of their useful service life so that if you go to do something on one part it can snowball into a much larger job. You also get blamed when another system that you never touched fails a week later. For example, the owner asks you to replace the rear brake shoes and that will take a couple hours, right? ...except that one of the rear cylinders is weeping and after replacing it you need to bleed all the brakes. Two caliper bleed screws break off. When you try to take off the calipers, the brake hoses are cracked and you can't leave them like that. Trying to remove the brake hoses causes one of the metal brake lines to fail, etc... Now you're into it for days and the bill is several times what you thought it would be. The customer is pissed and when their clutch master fails two weeks later the owner blasts you on the Samba or Facebook because the job took way too long, cost many times 'what it should have', and you caused their clutch to fail... |
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space
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017
Posts: 809
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2025 7:13 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| fknmovin60 wrote: |
| Cape Coral Florida... was quoted $250 per hour strait time.. haven't had time to post much... I'm always working to feed my family. |
I'm in SW cape whos quoting $250?
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82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
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space
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017
Posts: 809
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2025 7:07 am Post subject: Re: One less Vanagon mechanic (soon) |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| fknmovin60 wrote: |
| What you guys seeing for Vanagon shop labor rates in Florida? |
not going to help but I'm in CT and at 165/hr for cars up to 10 years old and 190/hr for anything 10 and older IF I take it in. Porsche....well somewhere in the middle of both of those numbers added together |
Don't you find the newer cars, with the overabundance of tech, more of a pita than these luddite-mobiles?
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82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23117
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| khughes wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
 ....its even worse than that sometimes.
Engineer: "This new part has to be made from a high performance thermoplastic....and its very expensive....but it's the only one that works"
Bean counter: "why is that so expensive. It's just black plastic?"
Purchasing dept guy: ....listening in on the conversation....."I can get black plastic by the ton for a fraction of the cost. If I do that, do me and my guys get a bonus?"
And.....that shit is how that silly multi-million car failure of the plastic water pump impeller....spanning VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes ...and others.....happens!
Ray |
Been seeing nonsense like that for 45 years. "this is a 'like for like' replacement", yeah sure and your criteria for that determination were....what exactly? Looks the same but it's cheaper? Good idea. |
Yyyyyeeeeeeessssss! ....its why over the past 15 years (really the crash of 2008 had a lot to do with it)......Viton rubber has been performing a whole damn lot.....like cheap neoprene. 
Ray |
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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 879
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
....its even worse than that sometimes.
Engineer: "This new part has to be made from a high performance thermoplastic....and its very expensive....but it's the only one that works"
Bean counter: "why is that so expensive. It's just black plastic?"
Purchasing dept guy: ....listening in on the conversation....."I can get black plastic by the ton for a fraction of the cost. If I do that, do me and my guys get a bonus?"
And.....that shit is how that silly multi-million car failure of the plastic water pump impeller....spanning VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes ...and others.....happens!
Ray |
Been seeing nonsense like that for 45 years. "this is a 'like for like' replacement", yeah sure and your criteria for that determination were....what exactly? Looks the same but it's cheaper? Good idea.
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'86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23117
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
.
So many excellent engineers....that can't engineer properly.... simply because they do not know the questions to ask about the product that was just handed to them to manufacture.
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or some jackwagon in accounting says "neat! now make it 1.78 cheaper" then we have a glut of shitty parts that don't last |
....its even worse than that sometimes.
Engineer: "This new part has to be made from a high performance thermoplastic....and its very expensive....but it's the only one that works"
Bean counter: "why is that so expensive. It's just black plastic?"
Purchasing dept guy: ....listening in on the conversation....."I can get black plastic by the ton for a fraction of the cost. If I do that, do me and my guys get a bonus?"
And.....that shit is how that silly multi-million car failure of the plastic water pump impeller....spanning VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes ...and others.....happens!
Ray |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17830
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
.
So many excellent engineers....that can't engineer properly.... simply because they do not know the questions to ask about the product that was just handed to them to manufacture.
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or some jackwagon in accounting says "neat! now make it 1.78 cheaper" then we have a glut of shitty parts that don't last
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23117
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| Ray and I often disagree on politics but he has captured the essence of my manufacturing business par excellence above on so many levels. |
Manufacturing is a bitch ain't it?
I have seen so many that at the current level I found them...should have been out of business or just hang it up. Some I could help. Some I could not.
So many excellent engineers....that can't engineer properly.... simply because they do not know the questions to ask about the product that was just handed to them to manufacture.
It goes back to my comment about the MBA. Just knowing how to run a business is no guarantee of success....depending on what that business DOES.
Ray |
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Abscate 
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 23818
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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Ray and I often disagree on politics but he has captured the essence of my manufacturing business par excellence above on so many levels.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23117
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| Westified wrote: |
Ray, first I wasnโt referring to you about hostility, I was referring to the fellow who dropped the F Bomb. I felt that was hostile. You decided to lecture me based on your experience and yet know nothing about my experience. I worked for 2 of the largest CPAโs firms in the world and the largest employer in Miami at an executive level. I went back to college after getting my CPA and 10 years of experience to get my MBA at night while still working full time. Basically 3 years of little sleep during that period. I had many discussions with professors challenging them with my real world experience and they agreed. I agree with you, it is better to get some experience and then go back to school for the MBA. You then can apply real world experience to your education. One of my best professors was a marketing VP for Burger King. He taught us what was important in the real world not text books.
I then started and ran 2 businesses for 35 years, servicing clients from Orlando to the Cayman Islands.
I didnโt think I appeared hostile but when attacked I was defensive as are you. Now regarding what is a fair hourly rate for auto repair includes all items you cited and yet the Cadillac dealership does quite well on $175/hr in Miami. Now for a one man shop to charge $230/hr with approx 2200 hours in a years work that would bring in $500,000 in revenue. Shop rent is approx $4,000/ mo in Miami for a shop this size or $48,000 per year. Leaving approx $450,000 left for other costs and profit. Now I know a small shop may not be busy 8 hrs per day every day, especially if their rates are not competitive or they donโt advertise. I am not sure what you consider a fair profit margin for the sole proprietor. I think if he could make $250,000 per year he would live comfortably. I think we agree on more things than you realize. I believe mechanics are entitled to a descent living. It is hot, hard and sometimes dirty work. As a customer I just want good value for my hard earned dollars. That is why I go to this mechanic. He does good work, an I have told him and others many times over. I want him to be successful, (he is a decent guy.
Any way this thread was about labor rates in Florida, which I provided along with a detailed description of work recently done. It is up to each consumer to decide how and where to spend his money and each shop owner as to what to charge. Usually businesses will charge what the market will bear, fair on not. Just look at the discussion raging about homeowners insurance rates in Florida. |
First, apologies if you took what I wrote wrong. I did not feel you were being hostile to ME at all....but your responses have a little bit defensive to start with.
I actually highly appreciate CPA's! A lot of work. But lets get down to brass tacks because I "percieve" that there are a few things that even with all of your business experience....you do not quite have your head wrapped around...or you would not be that puzzled at the rate change from your mechanic.
A couple of observations....all meant with very good will....
1.
| Quote: |
| I worked for 2 of the largest CPAโs firms in the world and the largest employer in Miami at an executive level. |
Yes and the first question I have is did you work your way up through the trenches? 2nd and its just an observation, that is an accounting firm...right?. That is a service.
What did you "manufacture"?
There is a reason for that last point I will get to in a minute.
2. I then started and ran 2 businesses for 35 years, servicing clients from Orlando to the Cayman Islands.
What kind of business? What did you manufacture? Were these acounting firms as well?
If so, absolutely nothing wrong with that and kudos to you and it shows you know how to run a "general" business.
HOWEVER.....manufacturing is not a "SERVICE". There are tool and fixture overheads, materials, regulatory costs, losses through attrition with certain clients that insurance cannot cover, hardware calibration costs and a whole slew of other costs that are far beyond what you might run into in a "SERVICE" oriented business....not to mention labor and all of the normal HR costs associated with having employees....not to mention ISO/QA regulations and process controls....and in high component count manufacturing, the purchasing department can be the most expensive department in the house.
But what does all of that have to do with mechanics rates?
Because automotive, aircraft, rail, appliance and equipment ....mechanics....are a mixture of SERVICE and MANUFACTURING. There are tools, fixtures, jigs, tool calibrations, chemicals and all of the services and regulations those require.
Mechanical repair and assembly businesses are very similar and no less expensive....than a fine dining restaurant business...because it is also a dead even mixture of SERVICE and MANUFACTURING with all of the pitfalls and problems.
This type of business is different in many ways from EITHER a pure SERVICE business or a pure MANUFACTURING business.
One thing I can tell you from having worked with thousands of manufacturing AND service oriented companies (mostly manufacturing) is that about 7 out of 10 manufacturing companies (especially smaller busier ones) do NOT 100% know their true manufacturing and/or overhead cost.
The accounting for materials and time, waste/spoilage, scrap and "frictional" losses is a full time job for someone who is generally not on the payroll in smaller companies.
But....the 30%-ish who do have a grasp on their true costs....regardless of why those costs are higher or lower than their competitors (tha analysis is a longer conversation).....are generally more successful and DO NOT generally chase their competitors rates.
And, as Khughes stated a few posts back....until they figure out what needs to be changed to increase or decrease their rate....My rate is my rate, if it doesn't work for a particular client, oh well, sorry hire someone else.
Of course there are certain businesses that cannot be that way (pizza, tobacco sales, fast food. The margins are too slim)....but if you are a service/manufacturing combo business and good at what you do...very good and your reputation speaks for you....and you are running a rate based on true cost in your shop....your rate is your rate.
Ray |
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3365
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
All that to say, everything is going to run me 1200.00.... I told him he's too cheap. |
I think you're right on that being too cheap. One of my trees died a couple years ago - 30 feet tall and next to my hot tub. The quote was around $1k to take it down. After talking to some others I came to realize that WAS indeed a fair price but I ended up doing it myself with a bow saw.
As for paint, at least house paint, the cost of having a house repainted here is about 2 to 3 times higher than it was five years ago. Paint got really expensive.
Back on topic... my van has been at the shop for a couple weeks now and I had a great conversation with the mech a while ago. I was quite happy to hear him say "new axles are crap so we're going to rebuild your OE one with a new CV". They also agreed with me that *something* is leaking ATF and they're going to fix it - the previous time I took it to a different shop they were like, "it doesn't seem that bad, you should just live with it".
No idea when it will be finished but I don't mind. Its been nice having extra space in the garage to work on my truck.
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'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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AlfromNH
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2024
Posts: 190
Location: NH
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 2:39 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| E1 wrote: |
Relationships and trust are always worth the price.
Business really neednโt be more complicated than that. |
Whereโs that damn โlikeโ buttonโฆ
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โ88 2wd Auto Westy project |
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 8440
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2025 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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A Venn diagram to sum things up:
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~Kamz 
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 8245
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2025 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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After a lifetime being self-employed, I sure relate.
Great effort delivered with respect for the customer is fading fast. Sometimes itโs easy to think itโs passed. I owe my customers all I got.
Relationships and trust are always worth the price. I also enjoy few things more than paying good people good money for good work. I like them kicking ass. Damn theyโre hard to find.
Business really neednโt be more complicated than that.
_________________
1984 Westfailure/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s
AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." โ Colin Chapman
Last edited by E1 on Sun Jul 20, 2025 9:25 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17830
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2025 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| khughes wrote: |
| Maybe it's just me, but I find it truly odd that a simple query about local rates for Vanagon repair morphed into a "you have to justify your rate to me" thread. |
ha, that's how I was feeling so not just you
| Quote: |
Seriously folks, **everyone wants top notch service/product** while **everyone wants bottom dollar expenditure** (myself NOT excluded)
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also feel that. I have a guy coming to take a tree down, shove it into a shredder grind the stump, and prep a hole for a new tree.
he got the job by default.... meaning he was the only guy to show up (that's a whole other issue) after calling 4-5 places.
this is a 45 foot tree, Siamesed and ready to take out the house or the shop.
Mind you, their reviews are killer, have been around a LONG time and I've personally spoken to people who used them.
All that to say, everything is going to run me 1200.00.... I told him he's too cheap. He and his crew (3 people total) will be getting a 125.00 tip (each) from me. I fully expected to pay in the 2-2200.00 range.
The best people to work or do work for are other tradespeople, as they can 100% relate. It's sort of a brotherhood....
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17830
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2025 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| Westified wrote: |
Skillsateurocarsplus what is your point. |
my point is you're crying that shit costs money:
| Westified wrote: |
In Miami my mechanic for my Vanagon Westy is charging $175.00/hr but told me he is going up to $230/hr. I said WHAT.
I think I got sticker shock |
Not sure what rock you've been living under but prices have doubled in some cases. Guess what? my health insurance use to be 120/mo and now it's a mortgage payment.
Sorry if my potty mouth offended you, (well, no I'm not if we're being honest) but I'd rather you be mad at me for speaking the truth than pissed at me for lying.
My point is...I don't know why you feel so entitled to decide what a fair price is depending on what YOU want to pay.
Classic example.... you're thinking you paid too much for full body work/paint ect but would probably have no problem dropping 20k on a deck, that was done in 3 days and as it weathered would be "ok" yet you are going to look at that paint job every....single....day.... and have a stroke at the first rust pimple that pops up.
That's the problem. In my example above, the carpenter spent 5k on materials, used YOUR electricity to whack up a bunch of toothpicks was done in 3 days and the paint and body took 3 weeks (or more), cost the guy 8-9k in materials and he may have made 2500 after all of it.
I own a shop after far too long in the dealer world. I just got a pint, yes PINT of basecoat and it was 243.82 and it's not even an exotic color.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 879
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2025 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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Maybe it's just me, but I find it truly odd that a simple query about local rates for Vanagon repair morphed into a "you have to justify your rate to me" thread. One is a simple query about *what IS* while the other is more of a navel gazing exercise about what "should be", in your estimation, vs *what is*. I no longer twist wrenches (thank the Gods of Chaos for that) for a living, but I do contract work on an hourly basis. I charge more than the rates seen in this thread, so far, based on 45 yrs experience in a relatively esoteric field. My rate is my rate, if it doesn't work for a particular client, oh well, sorry hire someone else. I don't see how a VW repair shop is any different. As a customer, you shop around, you compare value vs dollar, and you make your choice. It's really of no import if Shop A is poorly run, and because of that, needs $400/hr to make ends meet, while Shop B only needs $200/hr to make it work for them. The client/customer decides if the product/service received is worth the expenditure, given the necessity of said service, and the alternatives in the area, or not.
Seriously folks, **everyone wants top notch service/product** while **everyone wants bottom dollar expenditure** (myself NOT excluded) but that mix is not realistic. What's realistic is that Vanagon repair will become more and more expensive **relative to current daily driver fare** because of the unique issues Vanagons present; the available parts quality, the scarcity of competition, the increasing gap between flat rate and reality, and the limited population of clientele.
To the OP, I don't know Florida rates. You can call Affordable German for their AZ rates as a FYI query, but I wouldn't expect that to be comparable to Florida rates. At the end of the day, if you can't do most of your own maintenance/repair, owning a Vanagon is going to be quite expensive, and not terribly convenient.
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'86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23117
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2025 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Now for a one man shop to charge $230/hr with approx 2200 hours in a years work that would bring in $500,000 in revenue |
A one man shop will bill about half that many hours per year. |
Well stated.
Also a one man shop buys stock/shelf parts like filters and belts...typically with far less discounts. They either have a short term stocking agreement mean they get warehouse deliveries JIT....but because they are a small shop, discounts in dealer stocking agreements are based on total dollars spent. The small shop parts discount is typically only about 1/3 that of a large dealer.
Then you have overhead cost. Below a certain size, even having the same overhead combined cost per unit, or per square foot....means that it is a higher percentage of everyone of the fewer jobs you take in
Then there are the regulatory issues (varies depending on where you are) but your class 3 flammable dump barrel and your hazardous dump barrel need to be removed every 90 days when you are classified as a "conditionally exempt small generator" whereas a larger dealer of shop is classifed differently and even though they may have to pay the same $1200 to $2000 per drum disposal fee....they have a far better economy of scale.
There are many items I could go on and drag out....but suffice to say....cost per unit....cost per repair ....is a bit higher depending on how small you are.
Ray |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 23818
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2025 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon repair shop labor rates? |
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| Quote: |
| Now for a one man shop to charge $230/hr with approx 2200 hours in a years work that would bring in $500,000 in revenue |
A one man shop will bill about half that many hours per year.
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