What horsepower Do We Really Need?

[kow1]

Reading through this forum we constantly see posts of guy's wanting to build a 150hp motor, or maybe 100hp or perhaps 120hp. But what does this actually mean with regards the performance of the street driven VW?
Unless you have the luxury of being able to drive a number of VW's with different power outputs, how do you know what to shoot for?
There are many references to times for drag cars and all out street machines but what of the lesser powered machines?
I would like to see some posts of actual quarter or 0 - 60 times of street bodied, stock geared cars on street tires with say a 1776, 1914 or 2110 engine with a brief rundown on the components used.
These times could then be compared with similar times of other cars that we are familiar with and hopefully this could assist in determining what our real engine needs are going to be?
Thanks

[Glenn]

It's very simple, 100hp will allow you to get on the interstate and keep up with traffic with no problems. 150hp will allow you to keep up with the V8s. 200hp will allow you to beat the V8s.

100hp = $4000
150hp = $6000
200hp = $8000

That's it in a nutshell.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי

[Almost Alive]

My daily is a single port 1641 with a completely stock bottom end.
Dual Weber 34's
lightened flywheel
ported and welded heads with D ports
stock compression
Currently its got a 009 with a electronic conversion in it but I've also used a Pertronix billet distributor in it.
Freeway Flier trans
Probably puts out 70hp if that and it keeps up with traffic very well.
My engine rarely see's 4500 rpm's and I'm normally ahead of traffic from a stop light and it cruses along nicely at 80mph.
I suppose your definition of "need" could be different than mine but if you want a car that keeps up with other cars on the streets not too far from stock is what you "need"

[FireBug1966]

I say "need" has nothing to do with it.
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Engage the laser beam.
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[wompninja]

It's more like afford, because you'll always want more.

[Marv [UK]]

a 1776 can make 65 to over 100 HP

a 2332 can make from 90 to god knows how much HP!

you don't need massive HP to drive at all (Big HP used to be a peculiar American fixation) and, depending on the aerodynamic efficiency of your car, you only need a handful of HP to maintain any given speed and (theoretically at least) you can't exceed 65 MPH anyway, so why do you need a super fast car?

Acceleration is different gravy. If you want enough juice to keep up with the traffic, firstly, have you bought the right car? Secondly, how much more than that do you want?

75 HP will give you the same performance (in a bug) as say a small middle of the road European car like a 1.4 or 1.6 Rabbit. 100HP will give you enough to slowly lose out to a bottom of the range BMW. 120 HP and you'll keep up with the jap crap off the line and the list goes on

How you achieve that HP is one of the peculiarities of the VW hobby. many many ways of achieveing the same thing and no two are quite alike.

Glenn gets to the nub of the matter in few words though.
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[tattooed_pariah]

My only car for years was my beetle, it broke down as follows:

'72 standard
1776cc, 69x90.5, W110 cam, dual Weber 40mm's, 10:1CR, 91 oct pump gas, hideaway muffler, stock transaxle, and maybe some other minor things, but that was basically it..

I drove that thing anywhere and everywhere from the ages of 20-25 (I state my age because we know how 20-year-olds drive ) It was NEVER last off the line at a green light, normally I'd wind up stuck behind the guy ahead of me after the metering light gave me a green to get on the freeway, and once on the freeway, unless there was traffic, I never drove before 75mph, normally my average speed was between 85 and 95.

Thing ran like a champ, never had any problems. The only reason she's not running now is a direct result of an error in judgement of my own, no fault of the motor..

I only had it dynoed once, and at the time it had a very bad exhaust leak, so it was hemorraging power... but it still got about 70hp to the rear wheels..

If you want an extra boost of power without losing reliability, I can vouch for a good 1776cc.

I'm in the process of gathering parts to build a 2276cc just because I'm still young (dumb) enough to want more power but I know I'm going to lose reliability and lifetime with the increase in size..
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-pariah
'72 Volksrod

[spectre6000]

25 hp was intended to cruise at 100 kph (62 mph) all day long. So can 250 hp. It's mostly a function of gearing. As long as your engine is powerful enough to push the car at a rate you're comfortable with, that's all it NEEDS.

My bus has something like 65 hp if I were to try to pin it down without the assistance of a dyno (stock 1600dp with dual carbs and a quiet pack exhaust), and I have no problem doing 70 mph all day (with reduction boxes).

Unless you like to really stomp it at lights, you'll have all the acceleration you need with a stock 1600.
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Jason Hopper

-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
-'84 M1009 CUCV
-'81 K10
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
"Don't feed the Shitty Parts Monster!" -Me

[miniman82]

I've had (still have) stock 1600's, had a 1955 stroker, now I have a 1915 turbo in my DD. The 1600 is 55hp slow, but it will also take just about anything you can throw at it because it's built to last. Low compression, ect. The 1955 made a really good DD engine, I would guess it had around 100 hp. Made driving fun, and only a small hit to MPG. Makes keeping up in traffic easy, and keeps you from getting embarassed. The 1915T on the other hand is a different beast entirely. It puts 150tq to the ground, and puts a whoopin on just about anything it comes up against. How much power do you need? That's like asking how much money you need to be happy, there might not be a limit. I can tell you that I didn't start having fun in my Beetle till the 1915T, but everyone is different.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747

[modok]

To keep up with modern cars and traffic round here i'd guess you'd need 90-100 hp or so. Cars have a lot more power than in 1970.
One time last year I got on the highway and traffic was going 85 mph in the slow lane!
A minute later i'm allong side of a big new suv, i look over and the driver is sipping a cup of coffee and playing with his phone, we are going 95 mph!
95 mph in an old beetle is like flying a ww2 plane or something, you can't hear anything over the engine, the mirrors are blurry from the vibration, motivates a guy to keep both hands on the wheel to say the least.
I don't know which one of us is more reckless.........me? Or the guy going 95 mph looking at the screen on his cell phone!

I wonder how much hp it takes to make a bus as fast as a minivan?

[DarthWeber]

[miniman82]

Driving like that is what killed James Lynn Strait.

Slow down, people. Life is far too short to be in such a hurry on public roads, take it to the strip.

http://chinopony.tripod.com/SNOTRULES/id8.html
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747

[73stroker]

I had a 1904, 40 x 35.5 pocket p&p, w125, 44 IDF's, 1 1/2 qp mated to a stock trans in my 73 and it put out 91whp and I think the torque was around 115 or something like that, don't remember. It was a blast to drive. Had plenty of grunt to romp from stop light to stop light. Kicked it at 75mph on the highway with 205/70 rear tires no problem.

I now have a 2276, DRD L6 heads, XR302, IDA's, 1 3/4 sidewinder mated to a built stock gear trans that puts out around 150whp and it is a BEAST! This thing hauls A$$ and want to talk about 4th gear acceleration while doing 60mph . Drop it in 3rd while doing 60mph and this thing rockets. Puts a look on the guy in the Mustang that is unforgettable. I'm running a 3.88 with stock gears, .89 4th.

Both engines are a blast.

I just wanted to build a beast and wanted more HP. Eventually, I'll prolly go turbo because that looks like a lot of fun.

Have fun
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1973 standard Type 1
2276cc
DRD L6 heads
A-1 Sidewinder

[modok]

Yeah, hit anything solid past 80 and it's probably gonna be lights out.
Past 80 in a vw feels dangerous, and you know it should feel dangerous.
Get better fuel economy at 65.

[vdubnut58]

Took 3 diff combos for me to finally hit the 180+hp mark. And I can say now that 150hp now seems slow. Next time I freshen it up I will be aiming for 200hp. It's a street/drag car. And yes, I NEED that much HP. Still trying to keep up with my bro. F'Rs got 258 @ the crank on a NA motor.

[GTMike]

The engine composition of Almost Alive's and Mine are somewhere within the same realm except that mine is a dual port with a single carb. I have no problem at highway speeds. I can pull away from traffic very easily at 65 -70 mph. You don't need to make a ton of horsepower for speed. If its the thrill of acceleration you want, then you may want to build a torque monster engine.

-M

[tattooed_pariah]

[Jake Raby]

yet again... why is it always about HP?? Thats generally the least of my concerns when evaluating an engine or daily driving any of my VWs.

Look at the big picture, build for torque and a broad operating range..
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

[modok]

Hp is a unit of power. We use it to compare engines that do not have the same operating range of rpm. I suppose you could agrue that the HP RATING of a vw engine should be at 4000 or 4500 rpm, but the peak hp is interesting too since it allows us to imagine how fast it could accelerate, and what the top speed could be.
I suppose then we could also add duty cycle at peak hp. What would that be...30% maybe?

[vugbug68]

not again!
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71 Super
66 Corvair
69 Baja Bug