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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14436
Location: Western Canada
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 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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A dwell meter on a VW is a waste of time and money in my view because setting the point gap with a feeler gauge accomplishes exactly the same thing. You have to stop the engine and get your tools out either way so what is the point?
On a Chevy it's a time saver because you can do it running. Invent an adjustable points holder for a VW and put a window on the distributor so it can be done on the fly and I'm on board. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79090
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| oprn wrote: |
| A dwell meter on a VW is a waste of time and money in my view because setting the point gap with a feeler gauge accomplishes exactly the same thing. You have to stop the engine and get your tools out either way so what is the point? |
The point is setting the gap to .016" yields a dwell outside of the specified range of 49°±3°
You can set the dwell with the cap and rotor off while someone cranks the engine.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 35643
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| oprn wrote: |
A dwell meter on a VW is a waste of time and money in my view because setting the point gap with a feeler gauge accomplishes exactly the same thing. You have to stop the engine and get your tools out either way so what is the point?
On a Chevy it's a time saver because you can do it running. Invent an adjustable points holder for a VW and put a window on the distributor so it can be done on the fly and I'm on board. |
I agree that spring loaded point set with a window on the cap was brilliant! Made it a 10 second instead of 15 minute job. More accurate, too.
The thing about using dwell angle instead of gap is that as soon as you get a little 'tit" built up on one of the points, the feeler gauge method will set them too far apart.
Many years ago I made a Muir-style write-up on setting points without a dwell meter (for the Type 1 engine):
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79090
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
I agree that spring loaded point set with a window on the cap was brilliant! Made it a 10 second instead of 15 minute job. More accurate, too.
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Takes me about 30 seconds to set the dwell.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14436
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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The little "tit" transfer of metal from one point contact to another is normal wear on points and no you never try to set the points with it present. Point files were invented years ago to deal with this issue. You can give your points this treatment several times before they require replacement. That is basic tune up 101 knowledge.
| Glenn wrote: |
| The point is setting the gap to .016" yields a dwell outside of the specified range of 49°±3° |
That would be due to inaccuracy in the manufacture of the distributor shaft point cam or the wear on it from years of running. Fair enough, find the point setting that gives you the dwell you want .017", .015" whatever works, write it down and stick with it on that distributor.
| Glenn wrote: |
| You can set the dwell with the cap and rotor off while someone cranks the engine. |
Sure you can but it is still no more accurate than just setting the points with a feeler gauge. Because of the design of the points adjustment on VWs accuracy is dependent entirely on the manual dexterity of the guy operating the screw driver no matter if you are using a $5 feeler gauge or a $300 dwell meter. Whether it be coffee or some other stimulant that settles down your shakes use it - that is what accuracy depends on.
Now put in a little screw jack system on the points and window like GM did and I am with you 100% on a dwell meter being more accurate! |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14436
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
I agree that spring loaded point set with a window on the cap was brilliant! Made it a 10 second instead of 15 minute job. More accurate, too.
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Takes me about 30 seconds to set the dwell.
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Sure, I believe you can Glen. I also know a young guy that can play "Flight of the Bumble Bee" on the saxophone at speeds you would not believe. But most of us do not own a saxophone or have invested the hundreds of hours he has in learning to play it!  |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79090
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| oprn wrote: |
| Sure, I believe you can Glen. I also know a young guy that can play "Flight of the Bumble Bee" on the saxophone at speeds you would not believe. But most of us do not own a saxophone or have invested the hundreds of hours he has in learning to play it! |
Owning a vintage car requires time to learn how to maintain it and time to actually maintain it.
Or a big wallet paying someone else to do the work.
If you own a aircooled VW you need to know how to do a tune up which includes setting valve lash, changing spark plugs, ignition timing, dwell setting and carb.
If they don't they'll have a poorly running vehicle.
I'm sure you're not surprised how many can't adjust the fan belt.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14436
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Owning a vintage car requires time to learn how to maintain it and time to actually maintain it.
Or a big wallet paying someone else to do the work.
If you own a aircooled VW you need to know how to do a tune up which includes setting valve lash, changing spark plugs, ignition timing, dwell setting and carb.
If they don't they'll have a poorly running vehicle.
I'm sure you're not surprised how many can't adjust the fan belt. |
And contrary to what some believe you don't need a torque wrench, a belt tension meter and gold plated wrenches to change that fan belt. The way some folks carry on about some of the simple things some of us have been doing to our VWs since, in my case about 1967, is enough to discourage a novice from ever trying his hand at it.
Keeping a vintage VW running is within the realm of possibility for most people with simple basic tools. Just ask the late John Muir.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to get my hands on a distributor machine but have not yet and meanwhile my VWs will continue to run well. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79090
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| oprn wrote: |
| And contrary to what some believe you don't need a torque wrench, a belt tension meter and gold plated wrenches to change that fan belt. |
But you do need a torque wrench when you build an engine.
So what's your point?
$38 and not gold plated.
https://www.ebay.com/p/Professional-Digital-Tachom...1907933686
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14436
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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My point is I have a $120 engine analyzer and dwell meter and it quit about the third time I used it. My screwdriver and feeler gauge still work after 40 years and are as accurate as ever.
Waste of money for a VW with stock ignition points.
Last edited by oprn on Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3945
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| Dwell meters, especially if its digital allow the use to get a more accurate measurement, but the adjustment is still via the screwdriver - move and tighten, recheck, etc |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14436
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| Dwell meters, especially if its digital allow the use to get a more accurate measurement, but the adjustment is still via the screwdriver - move and tighten, recheck, etc |
Exactly! |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79090
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| oprn wrote: |
My point is I have a $120 engine analyzer and dwell meter and it quit about the third time I used it. My screwdriver and feeler gauge still work after 40 years and are as accurate as ever.
Waste of money for a VW with stock ignition points. |
You don't need to spend $120, I posted one for $38.
BTW, I just set a points gap to .016" and it gave a dwell of 36*. You shuld use more like .014" to get to the factory spec.
Link
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14436
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| It would be interesting to see if all the distributors end up with a .014" point gap. Let us know please. And if so I will change mine too. |
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bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4327
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| I have an old dwell meter from e-bay, less than $25 ten years ago. .016 gap is a close starting point but its not perfect. Where the points make and break will differ slightly on the distributor and the points contacts. |
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earthquake
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3989
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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Here is a odd ball VW distributor I bought off of a member here, It uses GM Delco parts, The cap is like those used on V8 GM vehicles but it it only has terminals, the others bosses are there but cut flat and not drilled. It uses a standard rotor from a V8 and the same points and condenser, the vacuum advance canister that was on it was hard and did not work so I replaced it with a Moroso adjustable unit. It has the window in the side for adjusting the points, I put a set of Corvette points in it. the only thing I don't like about it is it has no O-ring groove in it, it has enough meat to turn one but I don't have a lathe yet.
It uses GM counter weights so you can buy aftermarket weights and springs to tune it. Its a pretty cool unit it is Cast Iron and weighs a ton, I have not been able to find another cap so I may buy a GM cap and cut the terminals off and drill out the metal bits and fill the holes with epoxy if I ever need too.
Casey
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74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4327
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| earthquake wrote: |
Here is a odd ball VW distributor I bought off of a member here, It uses GM Delco parts, The cap is like those used on V8 GM vehicles but it it only has terminals, the others bosses are there but cut flat and not drilled. It uses a standard rotor from a V8 and the same points and condenser, the vacuum advance canister that was on it was hard and did not work so I replaced it with a Moroso adjustable unit. It has the window in the side for adjusting the points, I put a set of Corvette points in it. the only thing I don't like about it is it has no O-ring groove in it, it has enough meat to turn one but I don't have a lathe yet.
It uses GM counter weights so you can buy aftermarket weights and springs to tune it. Its a pretty cool unit it is Cast Iron and weighs a ton, I have not been able to find another cap so I may buy a GM cap and cut the terminals off and drill out the metal bits and fill the holes with epoxy if I ever need too.
Casey |
Just because you can does not mean you should |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79090
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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The Davis DWI uses a modified GM HEI distributor.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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earthquake
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3989
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| bsairhead wrote: |
| earthquake wrote: |
Here is a odd ball VW distributor I bought off of a member here, It uses GM Delco parts, The cap is like those used on V8 GM vehicles but it it only has terminals, the others bosses are there but cut flat and not drilled. It uses a standard rotor from a V8 and the same points and condenser, the vacuum advance canister that was on it was hard and did not work so I replaced it with a Moroso adjustable unit. It has the window in the side for adjusting the points, I put a set of Corvette points in it. the only thing I don't like about it is it has no O-ring groove in it, it has enough meat to turn one but I don't have a lathe yet.
It uses GM counter weights so you can buy aftermarket weights and springs to tune it. Its a pretty cool unit it is Cast Iron and weighs a ton, I have not been able to find another cap so I may buy a GM cap and cut the terminals off and drill out the metal bits and fill the holes with epoxy if I ever need too.
Casey
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Just because you can does not mean you should |
I don't understand what you mean, are you saying its junk? are you saying there no use for it? have you ever seen another one like it? I bought it to put in my collection of VW distributors, I will probably never use it.
I thought maybe somebody here might be interested to see something they have not seen and will probably never see again, I like to see weird one off and limited production and performance parts for VW's because not much of it is left. People throw it away or it sits in a box getting rained on until it is no longer useful to any one.
Casey
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 35643
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Setting dwell angle? |
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| Have you fitted it to a VW engine? It looks so big and heavy I'd be a little wary. I'm not sure if it interferes with nearby parts like the fuel pump. But it's a cool idea! Thanks for sharing. |
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