A Dirty Fuel Tank Saga - What Will Happen Next? Tune In...

[daves_ale]

Good plan.
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"Beer is proof that God loves us and wishes us to be happy"- Ben

'66 Euro Beetle 1200A
'71 Single Cab
'78 Westy
'02 Jaguar XK8 convertible

[train99]

Added note about the use of Tide detergent. I use tide and really hot water to remove paint from old tin toys when I restore them. A short soak and the paint comes off, and no nasty chemicals to deal with.

I know Tide will remove the paint from engine tin quickly. Comet cleanser - the powdered stuff works great on engine tin and doesn't strip away the paint. Only put cleanser on wet areas.

Terry
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Wanted - Seat Bottoms with good springs for 69 bug. Don't care about upholstery. Local to Mesa AZ only.

[Desertbusman]

Good point about Tide/old paint. I did wagons, scooter and smaller things for my son and little brothers. Worked great. There was always Tide in the house. But that was also back when Tide was cheap and just the normal laundry detergent.
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71 Superbug
71 Westy

[Daverham]

To link to this post copy and paste

[Gregor77]

What happened? I have to do the same thing to my 78 FI Westfalia. I want to see if the tank went back in as I will be doing the same in a few weeks.

My bus was found with the fuel tank disconected and a t-fitting cut. The PO left a hose from the filter to the Fuel pump disconected. I didn't think why this was done? But I can smell OLD gas and it swishes back and forth in the tank, but the hoses are disconnected? Maybe clogged and he wanted to get the bus moving using a gas can?

Please let me know if over the engine works!

Thanks!

[Daverham]

[Daverham]

Here is the HOW-TO I got from Traveling Writer:

Drain the tank. Clamp line to fuel filter, remove filter, put gas can under line, let 'er rip. While draining:

1) Spray the tank strap nuts with penetrating oil NOW (not WD 40, something good). Nuts are located inside frame rails in a horrible spot (see photos). To get them out, I used a 2' T-handle flexible head socket with a 13mm Deep Socket. You may be able to get around with some extenders on your regular socket, but a flexible neck and a deep socket (plus a flexible wrist and arm!) is a requirement.

2) REMOVE these items: Hot Air Blower and hoses; Air Cleaner; S-boot; Distributor Cap; whatever vacuum lines are in the way. Label everything with masking tape labels and take some pics first!

3) Loosen or detach these items without needing to disconnect them: Coil (just let hang in pulley well, no need to disconnect); Voltage regulator and Double Relay on firewall; brake booster vac line. DISCONNECT BATTERY

Optional: Remove throttle body if you are comfortable doing so. I didn't, and no harm done. It does get a little pressure on it at certain times, so if you're nervous about that, pull it.

4) Undo firewall screws. Three or four per side (mine had some missing), two underneath (some people's are missing because of PO laziness, see photos for location). I used a super long 2 foot philips head screwdriver and got the bottom ones out easily.

5) Firewall pops out. The engine tin is slightly overhanging, but the firewall has plenty of flexibility to take it. If not, bend the tin down with pliers. It'll be easier to reinstall the tank and firewall that way anyway.

6) Undo two tank strap bolts. Tricky buggers located inside the frame rails. Use the fuel lines as reference, both are almost directly above the in and out gas lines, 2 inches toward the passenger side of each. VERY IMPORTANT: If bolts don't want to come EASILY, then get a helper to put some vice grips on the tank straps from above, so they don't twist while you wrench. Otherwise they WILL twist and snap and then you'll have another problem. Mine were lubed well enough that I didn't need a helper, so you might get lucky.

7) If you're removing your tank, drain now or earlier. Disconnect sender wire and ground, fuel filler neck hose, vent lines, lines from underneath bus inlet and outflow of tank.

To remove the tank itself, it can seem like it gets "stuck" on the way out. This is because of those two J-shaped in and outlet pipes on the bottom hanging up very easily. The correct move is to lift underneath both sides of the tank with your arms like a forklift, as high as it will go, then push it away from you toward the front of the bus with the passenger side, while at the same time sliding/pulling the left (driver's) side to the left and toward yourself. You want those in and outlet pipes on the bottom to clear the metal and then hook the tank 90 degrees, driver's side coming out first. It is easier if you pull the metal vapor lines instead of just tucking them out of the way. I'm assuming you're going to replace the rubber vapors anyway, so you may as well give yourself as much room as you can.

9) Once the tank is in that position, it's easy enough to slide it along the left side of the engine and out the engine bay door. There will be a lot of squealing, but really the only thing is the tin at the back; you'll see nothing else is really touching the tank. Watch the in and out pipes on the bottom so they don't rip out wires on the way out, go slow, check often.

REINSTALLATION
Is the reverse of the above, naturally. A few tips:
1) Even if you didn't need a helper to hold the tank straps when undoing them, you'll need one to hold them while re-tightening them. Mine don't seat all the way to the ground; that's the way they were, and if I tighten them any more, they'll snap. Best bet is to take a good look before you undo them, a photo even, maybe measure the gap if there is one with a ruler or roughly, and feel the tightness of the strap by tugging on it a little. Consider double nuts on each bolt to prevent them coming undone due to vibration.

2) Reinstalling the tank strap nut with proper washer was a tremendous PITA, until I got the idea of using my thin extensible 3 foot magnetic pickup tool. I stuck the washer to it, passed it up into the frame hole and round the bolt (there is one spot when you lay in it where you can actually see the bolt), then was able to hold it there while I used the tips of two fingers to start the nut going.

If the straps break (common problem, hence all the precautions above), they can be unclipped at the back and welded, or even just fixed with a pair of small bolts and a strap of metal.

If you're doing all this, may as well have all the vapor lines ready to swap out, with proper clamps if you go that way, and the bottom two gas lines too! And check the fuel filler neck if you have that awful bird's beak for rips or tears....


Then a follow-up:
i forgot to add a couple of thoughts: despite what many say (just drop the engine in 10 minutes, etc), this is a really easy thing to do if you go slowly. The tank will want to hang up, and will squeal on the way in/out. Just go SLOW, always keep checking that nothing is hung up. NEVER will you need to use any mechanical leverage like a piece of wood or crowbar or anything. With a drained tank, you should easily be able to lean in and cradle it in your arms. You WILL need to bend the rear tin flat with pliers to get the firewall out normally, and then when you reinstall it, bend it back as far as you can. The foam will keep the compartment sealed; it does no harm to bend the tin once or twice. Spray the tank strap nuts well with penetrating lubricant the night before if you can, and get a helper to hold the straps up top while you wrench down below, or you'll bust them. My gallery has pics of the tank strap holes (in the frame from underneath), etc, so check those too... write if you need more help!

[Daverham]

I would also add a couple things:

1. Ratwell's site is awesome, but his "weak muriatic acid solution" is too weak. I got nowhere with that, but when I dumped the acid into the tank straight from the bottle.... my rust was completely gone in 30 minutes. Awesome!

2. These FIREWALL TIN SCREWS will kill you if you ignore them. Access them from under the bus, to get the firewall off. They are hidden. So are the tank strap bolts - also hidden, also under the bus.


This pic is from Traveling Writer:

[Daverham]

Here's the tank, right out of the bus:

This is that same rusty tank as above... This is after I washed it out with water and let it dry. All the loose scaly rust is out, but it looks even worse.

Bottle of acid from the local True Value hardware store, $8.

I tried Ratwell's diluted, overnight soak and got nowhere. I had MUCH better results with 30 minutes of acid straight out of the bottle. That rust is GONE and the metal is solid underneath. Please do follow all precautions with the acid. Use outdoors, gloves, goggles, etc. Don't breath those vapors, not even once! Anyway, you can see how this is clean and ready for my POR-15 kit. Rad. Local radiator shop quoted me like $600 to do this, yeah right, jerks.

I happened to have this old-fashioned hair dryer that I got at a garage sale for just this kind of thing. It was VERY helpful in drying the tank quickly after the acid so rust wouldn't form, and it is helping cure the POR-15 right now.

ETA: Inside the tank, after the POR-15 treatment!

The inspector approves.

[Daverham]

Update!

The fuel tank is back in the bus with a rock-hard, glassy coating of POR-15 fuel tank sealer inside. Engine never dropped, never even lowered. Went back in easier than it came out - probably because I removed the throttle and EGR stuff. Well worth it. All could have been done easily on a single saturday (if I wasn't doing a million other things too).

Total cost about $75 for the POR-15 kit and $8 for the muriatic acid... maybe another $10 for some new fuel hose, clamps, etc.... Less than $100, anyway.

The trickiest move in this whole process is how you turn the fuel tank to get it out, but since I had read about that here, not even that was tricky... just would have sucked if you didn't know it. Basically: Left end out first, rotate the right side forward and left 90 degrees, then straight out on the left side (see pic above). Thanks to whoever posted that info, probably TravelingWriter.

I'll be rebuilding my sender unit in my spare time while the tank continues to cure in the bus. Look forward to a thread about how to do that. I think it will be the first such thread on the Samba! I sure can't find one. Got my resistive wire and everything, ready to start re-winding... here goes another experiment.

[daves_ale]

Good job man.

Now open your own tank resto shop at $600 a pop
_________________
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wishes us to be happy"- Ben

'66 Euro Beetle 1200A
'71 Single Cab
'78 Westy
'02 Jaguar XK8 convertible

[Daverham]

If anybody wants a tank resto, I'll do it for less than that!

[greenbus pilot]

[Daverham]

I got my wire from this guy (Jacobs Online). I paid for it and they shipped it faster than I thought possible (http://jacobs-online.biz/nichrome_wire.htm). I never got a confirmation email or anything, but I got my wire in like 2 days and it is super cheap. Good enough for me! The 36 gauge is the stuff. Full thread coming soon.

My buddy says that you can get auxiliary plastic fuel tanks for Jeeps in a variety of shapes and sizes. Maybe look into an off-road supply place for that. I bet there is some info over in the rail/buggy side of this site too.

[Daverham]

Another note...


Everyone (Ratwell and POR-15) seems pretty obsessed with "sludge" and their instructions are very much oriented toward removing sludge. I don't know how people are getting all this sludge in their fuel tanks or what that even is, but I didn't have any. I had scaly rust. If your tank starts out just looking like rusty metal, like mine, you can skip some of the most time-consuming steps that they describe - go straight to the acid wash, and don't bother with the Marine Clean.

[onion456]

i have a tank out trying to get clean right now. its the second one ive done- my camper i had no problems with. (also went out over the engine- never again) but THIS tank is giving me a hell of a time- not so much sludge, but an oily film on the bottom of the tank that i can not get rid of. ive used marine clean, purple power, boiling hot water with powdered tide, numerous (more than i can count) muriatic acid washes and rinses, every time i put metal ready in and let dry, this oily film remains, and i dont want to POR-15 it until its gone. im bout ready to give up and take to a radiator shop.
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'76 Sage Green Westy 2.0 FI
'76 Creamsicle 7-passenger 2.0 CS FI
'85 Tan Westy

[Daverham]

How do you know it's an oily film, since you can't really touch it in there? After what you described, I find it hard to believe it possible that there is anything left in that tank at all.

How diluted was your acid wash?

Why do you say "never again" about over-the-engine tank removal? I found it to be pretty easy. Notably less hassle than dropping the engine, and you can do it by yourself (I always call a buddy for an engine drop).

[onion456]

can see the oily film- where the metal etch has turned white after drying, the majority of the tank is dry/white, the bottom of the tank and in some streaks looks like it has not dried, like a oily spot. dunno how else to describe it.

i use plenty of acid. really does a number on the rust, indeed. ive done 50/50, works fast.

as for never again- same as you, i had to bend my tin to get the tank out. just seems like the hack way of doing it- have to figure out while in process what parts need to be removed for the tank to clear... bend stuff up... my mind is cluttered anyway, if i have to go so far as remove the tank, dropping the engine is not that much work and allows me to think more clearly. youve already got the fuel system apart if youre pulling the tank- all thats left is a few electrical connections and 4 bolts and your engine is out. and you can now crawl in the engine compartment for cleaning or whatever, also your engine is out for you to pull tin/inspect, change spark plugs, whatever.

and i do my engine drops sans buddy. not really a need, imo, one person can do it easily.
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'76 Sage Green Westy 2.0 FI
'76 Creamsicle 7-passenger 2.0 CS FI
'85 Tan Westy

[daves_ale]

I would like to see pics of this film. When I did mine, there was some discoloration and streaks and such.. I'm fairly certain I did a write up and posted pics., But this was awhile ago. Ratwell and folks said just go for it and I've yet to have poor results.
_________________
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wishes us to be happy"- Ben

'66 Euro Beetle 1200A
'71 Single Cab
'78 Westy
'02 Jaguar XK8 convertible

[Daverham]

Here's a link to the FIX YOUR SENDER thread, as promised:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4112584#4112584