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busben
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2008
Posts: 539
Location: Somerset, UK
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 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 12:20 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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Nice to see a new user adding a little action on the Barndoor threads  |
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mr. warehouse
Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2001
Posts: 5002
Location: Nor Cal 707
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RockStock
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2004
Posts: 4235
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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| RockStock wrote: |
| The extremely original Hornbecker Deluxe (Jan 52) has the no-gap badge |
This bus is a fraud. And to quote Mr Attention Deficit, it’s down to YOU to prove it isn’t
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 71756
Location: Phoenix 602
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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It would probably be more effective to bring up this topic in the Split Beetle Forum where I guarantee there are WAY more people knowledgeable on the early Beetle hood emblems.
There is a very good chance this includes members who know more than random(?) contacts at VW. 
I didn't find a specific dedicated thread to add to but there are numerous mentions of the early style hood emblem with no split in the center.
For something that is supposedly reproduction only there's a weird number of original-looking crests for sale on the site right now.
One ad:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2705419
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finster
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012
Posts: 10340
Location: not far from the madding crowd
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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don't see why we should spend more time on this until vwdilemma shows us the correspondence he's had from vw...
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Lind
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000
Posts: 10258
Location: idaho
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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| VWdilemma wrote: |
| For Volkswagen to make a no-gapped logo makes no sense. All of these are reproductions. The VW logo was officially patented in 1948. The first appearance of the hood emblem on Beetles was 1949. Why would they make the first ones with letters seamlessly connected after they just patented the gapped logo? Even the owners manuals from 1949 have the gapped emblem sketched into the phantom view diagram. Also this theory about them being “left-overs from past times” doesn’t hold water either. The fist bus was 1950. Where else have this type of emblems been found? What model? Where on the car? So “left-over” from where? When? Everyone thinking they are in possession of an original emblem that is connected has been fooled. And everyone who is making these emblems now are perpetuating the false theory that they were ever connected. |
If this is the only thing that you have found that makes no sense in this hobby with these old volkswagens than you haven't been looking very hard. If you start trying to make sense of these things life will be really hard for you. Some things just are. Deal with it, embrace it, have fun with it.
If you are going to make big claims contrary to what is generally known, you need big proof. People figure out new things all the time and the knowledge of things does change, but you need to bring the receipts. Someone from the factory said something is among the weakest arguments you can have. The community of enthusiasts has way more evidence and cares way more about these things than most people who work at the factory.
For instance, the factory parts lists certain special paint colors being available in the '50s. We have never seen some of those colors, while there are other colors not listed in the parts lists that we have seen dozens of examples of. Doesn't make sense, but it is the way it is.
The factory lists M51 as second generator on '51-'52 deluxe buses. It certainly isn't that, even though the factory says it is. Numbers are infinite, they could make a new number of every M-code but instead they reused M-codes, and used the same code for different things on different models, or even for different things on the same model at different times. Does not make sense. We deal with it.
Chalk it up to learning, the scientific method, etc. Do more research and you will find things, maybe new things and you will add to the overall knowledge of things. For this thing, there is plenty of serious evidence contrary to your theory.
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ddutch
Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2020
Posts: 228
Location: Nederland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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Well said!
Could the existance of the No-Gap badge not be verified from official VW pictures or brochures of that period? |
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VWdilemma
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2024
Posts: 14
Location: Queensland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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Once again, the ‘theory’ here being promulgated is that Volkswagen produced and affixed connected logos to bonnets and dashes starting in 1949. Conveniently, however, the actual details can only be guessed at based on evidence found years later. Has anyone ever found any mention of this prior to circa 2000? 2005 is the earliest mention I’ve found on this forum… https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=132574&highlight=hood+logo… There’s a few confident claims for when they started and stopped but no evidence provided. Why hasn’t the subject been raised prior to that? Why isn’t this a generational historic anomaly? It’s only 20 years old. From what I can gather, the models where talking about pre-date the theory by 50 years.
Now, maybe there are enthusiasts here who know way more than most occupying the halls of VW currently. I'd be keen to hear from them. But according to the actual authority, which is still officially Volkswagen, and according to their heritage and archives departments, there have never been official badges made without a gap. This is backed up by official evidence, some of which I’ve already mentioned. Not to mention basic logic and reasoning; being why they would ever make them in the first place?
Yes, there is physical evidence to the contrary, plenty of it. But that can still be explained by reproductions. So again, the ‘theory’ here is that VW made these connected emblems. VW say they never did. The onus therefore, is on anyone who subscribes to this theory to prove it. If they care to. I don’t care what people want to believe. But if you’re curious enough, anyone can contact VW with their own evidence and ask the question. I don’t have special contacts there. Just go to their website contact page. Not that difficult. If you can spend the time writing a comment here, you can do that too. Once you’ve got that official answer, I’m happy to compare. But I’m no ones personal research gofer. And I’m certainly not the one who needs to prove a ‘theory’. |
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finster
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012
Posts: 10340
Location: not far from the madding crowd
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:32 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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strong whiff of troll here... 
if you haven't any correspondence to show then it appears your bluff has been called.
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Scotty
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2003
Posts: 1553
Location: Northampton - Uk
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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| VWdilemma wrote: |
| I’m certainly not the one who needs to prove a ‘theory’. |
Well seeing as pretty much everyone else is in agreement that the badges without a gap are genuine, then perhaps you do.
I find it hard to believe that all the vehicles running badges without gaps have repro badges on them, it doesn't make sense. As Lind said, there are many things that vw didn't document themselves, yet they exist.
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busben
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2008
Posts: 539
Location: Somerset, UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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Just post the badges on your collection of split beetles, Barndoor deluxes, or even your NOS collection VWdilemma. Put the haters to shame 
I also agree with you that there was very little discussion of this subject on line a few decades ago before most people started using the internet. |
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Lind
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000
Posts: 10258
Location: idaho
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2024 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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| finster wrote: |
strong whiff of troll here...
if you haven't any correspondence to show then it appears your bluff has been called. |
Sure looks like it. Joined last month, no pictures or useful contributions, now telling us all how it is without presenting any evidence.
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VWdilemma
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2024
Posts: 14
Location: Queensland
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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| Lind wrote: |
| finster wrote: |
strong whiff of troll here...
if you haven't any correspondence to show then it appears your bluff has been called. |
Sure looks like it. Joined last month, no pictures or useful contributions, now telling us all how it is without presenting any evidence. |
You don’t agree with me so I’m a troll? Wow. Don’t really know what to say to these comments, other than I’m surprised you haven’t reflected and deleted them already. It’s kinda pathetic and says way more about you than me.
| Scotty wrote: |
| VWdilemma wrote: |
| I’m certainly not the one who needs to prove a ‘theory’. |
Well seeing as pretty much everyone else is in agreement that the badges without a gap are genuine, then perhaps you do. |
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. If you can’t extract the logic from my previous comments, and don’t understand the hierarchy principles associated with testing a theory, then I guess just figure it out on your own? I’ll give you a couple of hints though - it doesn’t start and finish at assumptions made based on limited evidence. And a consensus of five or six people on a forum with a strong incentive to believe the theory doesn’t sit at the apex of that hierarchy.
| busben wrote: |
Just post the badges on your collection of split beetles, Barndoor deluxes, or even your NOS collection VWdilemma. Put the haters to shame
I also agree with you that there was very little discussion of this subject on line a few decades ago before most people started using the internet. |
Agreed, the web has opened up more opportunities to engage with different theories. But I’ve also searched through many books published pre and post-2000 that specifically address each VW model, and I’ve never seen this emblem difference discussed or mentioned. It’s a pretty big difference imo. One that should have generated a lot of interest and discussion prior to 2000. Even this forum has been up since around then but the earliest mention is 2005.
I know that dealers like this one … https://www.vwperformance.com.au/product/Spare-Wheel-Cover-with-Logo-14-T2-Kombi… sell connected covers because they don’t have the rights to do otherwise. And I’m sure everyone here is aware how aggressively VW goes after copyright infringers. So I’m simply adding data points to the official word from VW and arriving at a logical conclusion. I mean, who’s to say the Beastie Boy craze in the 80’s didn’t spawn a whole lot of reproductions entering the mix? Having said everything that I’ve said, I’m not completely dismissive of the idea that VW either doesn’t have the concrete evidence to support their position definitively, and are possibly too embarrassed to admit that. Or that they’re maybe deliberately hiding this part of their history for whatever reason. But there’s just no real evidence or motivation that I can gather for such speculation.
But as I mentioned previously, I’m keen to hear from anyone who’s actually got some concrete evidence (other than more images of connected badges). Even genuine first hand anecdotal evidence I would fine interesting. The photo of Reimspiess with a large sketch of the connected logo is interesting. But without context, it’s just that. He looks around seventy plus years old which would make that circa 1970. So obviously years after the alleged connected logo theory. And it contradicts his logo design in the first place. It also needs to be adequately explained why VW would ever do this when they had the official gapped logo plastered nearly everywhere else in and around the beetle, even prior to ’49 (i.e. gear stick, speedometer, dash, pedals, hub caps, etc). Simply makes no sense. Other than perhaps an error, as suggested. But again, that’s another theory that needs proving on its own.
And yeah, haters be haters lol. But I won’t be posting my correspondence with VW as evidence for a few reasons; firstly, what difference would it make to the people here who assume to know better anyway? Secondly, my personal details are displayed. Which I suppose I could go to the trouble of redacting them, but that would be going to more trouble than I’m willing to. Especially when it’s so easy for anyone else to contact VW and ask basic questions. I will however post the contact page and email address for those seemingly incapable of using a keyboard beyond this forum:
https://www.volkswagen.de/de/besitzer-und-service/ueber-ihr-auto/hilfe-und-dialogcenter.html
[email protected]
If you’re not proficient in German, or can’t use the internet competently to translate German, then contact your countries English speaking counterpart. |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 830
Location: germany
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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| VWdilemma wrote: |
| Lind wrote: |
| finster wrote: |
strong whiff of troll here...
if you haven't any correspondence to show then it appears your bluff has been called. |
Sure looks like it. Joined last month, no pictures or useful contributions, now telling us all how it is without presenting any evidence. |
You don’t agree with me so I’m a troll? Wow. Don’t really know what to say to these comments, other than I’m surprised you haven’t reflected and deleted them already. It’s kinda pathetic and says way more about you than me.
| Scotty wrote: |
| VWdilemma wrote: |
| I’m certainly not the one who needs to prove a ‘theory’. |
Well seeing as pretty much everyone else is in agreement that the badges without a gap are genuine, then perhaps you do. |
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. If you can’t extract the logic from my previous comments, and don’t understand the hierarchy principles associated with testing a theory, then I guess just figure it out on your own? I’ll give you a couple of hints though - it doesn’t start and finish at assumptions made based on limited evidence. And a consensus of five or six people on a forum with a strong incentive to believe the theory doesn’t sit at the apex of that hierarchy.
| busben wrote: |
Just post the badges on your collection of split beetles, Barndoor deluxes, or even your NOS collection VWdilemma. Put the haters to shame
I also agree with you that there was very little discussion of this subject on line a few decades ago before most people started using the internet. |
Agreed, the web has opened up more opportunities to engage with different theories. But I’ve also searched through many books published pre and post-2000 that specifically address each VW model, and I’ve never seen this emblem difference discussed or mentioned. It’s a pretty big difference imo. One that should have generated a lot of interest and discussion prior to 2000. Even this forum has been up since around then but the earliest mention is 2005.
I know that dealers like this one … https://www.vwperformance.com.au/product/Spare-Wheel-Cover-with-Logo-14-T2-Kombi… sell connected covers because they don’t have the rights to do otherwise. And I’m sure everyone here is aware how aggressively VW goes after copyright infringers. So I’m simply adding data points to the official word from VW and arriving at a logical conclusion. I mean, who’s to say the Beastie Boy craze in the 80’s didn’t spawn a whole lot of reproductions entering the mix? Having said everything that I’ve said, I’m not completely dismissive of the idea that VW either doesn’t have the concrete evidence to support their position definitively, and are possibly too embarrassed to admit that. Or that they’re maybe deliberately hiding this part of their history for whatever reason. But there’s just no real evidence or motivation that I can gather for such speculation.
But as I mentioned previously, I’m keen to hear from anyone who’s actually got some concrete evidence (other than more images of connected badges). Even genuine first hand anecdotal evidence I would fine interesting. The photo of Reimspiess with a large sketch of the connected logo is interesting. But without context, it’s just that. He looks around seventy plus years old which would make that circa 1970. So obviously years after the alleged connected logo theory. And it contradicts his logo design in the first place. It also needs to be adequately explained why VW would ever do this when they had the official gapped logo plastered nearly everywhere else in and around the beetle, even prior to ’49 (i.e. gear stick, speedometer, dash, pedals, hub caps, etc). Simply makes no sense. Other than perhaps an error, as suggested. But again, that’s another theory that needs proving on its own.
And yeah, haters be haters lol. But I won’t be posting my correspondence with VW as evidence for a few reasons; firstly, what difference would it make to the people here who assume to know better anyway? Secondly, my personal details are displayed. Which I suppose I could go to the trouble of redacting them, but that would be going to more trouble than I’m willing to. Especially when it’s so easy for anyone else to contact VW and ask basic questions. I will however post the contact page and email address for those seemingly incapable of using a keyboard beyond this forum:
https://www.volkswagen.de/de/besitzer-und-service/ueber-ihr-auto/hilfe-und-dialogcenter.html
[email protected]
If you’re not proficient in German, or can’t use the internet competently to translate German, then contact your countries English speaking counterpart. |
I think, there is no need to be too serious about that question or "problem".
Maybe in the book "Kleiner Wagen auf grosser Fahrt" 1949, there can be a pic of the earliest post war VW beetle hood emblems. Here I can say, my 9´49 and 3´50 splits which I have since 1970 and 1984, both have the old-style, no-gapped logos. My 7´50 split already has the newer gapped edition. All cars with original hoods, undamaged, unrestored. It´s known, at least in later years, VW had some different supplier for emblems, such as: a) "Lauer", Nuernberg, b) K.S.P., c) PuC about the same time. Who knows, when the first no-gapped "repro-emblems" appeared on market? My 49 was barn-stored in 1974 and when I got him in 1984, the un-gapped logo was present. For me, there is positivly no doubt, this version is original, probably till mid 1950. In 10´52 the beetle got a new style "unsolid" VW-emblem which was not used for busses, as far as I know. So I think it´s quite possible, that there were some left over parts, or even a new series of gapped or un-gapped were ordered.
Thinking about wheel caps since around May 1949 with the small logo. This logo has about the same size as the hood emblem. For the pressing process of the caps, a gap makes technical sense and is necessary for the rounded wheel caps, but not necessary for flat hood or dash emblems. My 9´49 has 3 original wheel caps (with only one hole), but of course, all have gaps on the caps. |
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busben
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2008
Posts: 539
Location: Somerset, UK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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Well that rules out the “Beastie Boys” theory 
“Your mom busted in and said, “What’s that noise?”
Aw, Mom, you’re just jealous it’s the Beastie Boys” |
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finster
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012
Posts: 10340
Location: not far from the madding crowd
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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wagen19 - you poor deluded soul, all those useless repro emblems that you thought were rare originals!  I've looked through 'kleiner wagen...' - as you suggested it - but there is not a clear photo of the emblem.
...what does garwood say?
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Lind
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000
Posts: 10258
Location: idaho
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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| busben wrote: |
| Well that rules out the “Beastie Boys” theory |
We still have the "back to the future" theory of a time traveler going back with a giant bag of repro no-gap badges in his Delorean, right?
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VWdilemma
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2024
Posts: 14
Location: Queensland
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| VWdilemma wrote: |
| Lind wrote: |
| finster wrote: |
strong whiff of troll here...
if you haven't any correspondence to show then it appears your bluff has been called. |
Sure looks like it. Joined last month, no pictures or useful contributions, now telling us all how it is without presenting any evidence. |
You don’t agree with me so I’m a troll? Wow. Don’t really know what to say to these comments, other than I’m surprised you haven’t reflected and deleted them already. It’s kinda pathetic and says way more about you than me.
| Scotty wrote: |
| VWdilemma wrote: |
| I’m certainly not the one who needs to prove a ‘theory’. |
Well seeing as pretty much everyone else is in agreement that the badges without a gap are genuine, then perhaps you do. |
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. If you can’t extract the logic from my previous comments, and don’t understand the hierarchy principles associated with testing a theory, then I guess just figure it out on your own? I’ll give you a couple of hints though - it doesn’t start and finish at assumptions made based on limited evidence. And a consensus of five or six people on a forum with a strong incentive to believe the theory doesn’t sit at the apex of that hierarchy.
| busben wrote: |
Just post the badges on your collection of split beetles, Barndoor deluxes, or even your NOS collection VWdilemma. Put the haters to shame
I also agree with you that there was very little discussion of this subject on line a few decades ago before most people started using the internet. |
Agreed, the web has opened up more opportunities to engage with different theories. But I’ve also searched through many books published pre and post-2000 that specifically address each VW model, and I’ve never seen this emblem difference discussed or mentioned. It’s a pretty big difference imo. One that should have generated a lot of interest and discussion prior to 2000. Even this forum has been up since around then but the earliest mention is 2005.
I know that dealers like this one … https://www.vwperformance.com.au/product/Spare-Wheel-Cover-with-Logo-14-T2-Kombi… sell connected covers because they don’t have the rights to do otherwise. And I’m sure everyone here is aware how aggressively VW goes after copyright infringers. So I’m simply adding data points to the official word from VW and arriving at a logical conclusion. I mean, who’s to say the Beastie Boy craze in the 80’s didn’t spawn a whole lot of reproductions entering the mix? Having said everything that I’ve said, I’m not completely dismissive of the idea that VW either doesn’t have the concrete evidence to support their position definitively, and are possibly too embarrassed to admit that. Or that they’re maybe deliberately hiding this part of their history for whatever reason. But there’s just no real evidence or motivation that I can gather for such speculation.
But as I mentioned previously, I’m keen to hear from anyone who’s actually got some concrete evidence (other than more images of connected badges). Even genuine first hand anecdotal evidence I would fine interesting. The photo of Reimspiess with a large sketch of the connected logo is interesting. But without context, it’s just that. He looks around seventy plus years old which would make that circa 1970. So obviously years after the alleged connected logo theory. And it contradicts his logo design in the first place. It also needs to be adequately explained why VW would ever do this when they had the official gapped logo plastered nearly everywhere else in and around the beetle, even prior to ’49 (i.e. gear stick, speedometer, dash, pedals, hub caps, etc). Simply makes no sense. Other than perhaps an error, as suggested. But again, that’s another theory that needs proving on its own.
And yeah, haters be haters lol. But I won’t be posting my correspondence with VW as evidence for a few reasons; firstly, what difference would it make to the people here who assume to know better anyway? Secondly, my personal details are displayed. Which I suppose I could go to the trouble of redacting them, but that would be going to more trouble than I’m willing to. Especially when it’s so easy for anyone else to contact VW and ask basic questions. I will however post the contact page and email address for those seemingly incapable of using a keyboard beyond this forum:
https://www.volkswagen.de/de/besitzer-und-service/ueber-ihr-auto/hilfe-und-dialogcenter.html
[email protected]
If you’re not proficient in German, or can’t use the internet competently to translate German, then contact your countries English speaking counterpart. |
I think, there is no need to be too serious about that question or "problem".
Maybe in the book "Kleiner Wagen auf grosser Fahrt" 1949, there can be a pic of the earliest post war VW beetle hood emblems. Here I can say, my 9´49 and 3´50 splits which I have since 1970 and 1984, both have the old-style, no-gapped logos. My 7´50 split already has the newer gapped edition. All cars with original hoods, undamaged, unrestored. It´s known, at least in later years, VW had some different supplier for emblems, such as: a) "Lauer", Nuernberg, b) K.S.P., c) PuC about the same time. Who knows, when the first no-gapped "repro-emblems" appeared on market? My 49 was barn-stored in 1974 and when I got him in 1984, the un-gapped logo was present. For me, there is positivly no doubt, this version is original, probably till mid 1950. In 10´52 the beetle got a new style "unsolid" VW-emblem which was not used for busses, as far as I know. So I think it´s quite possible, that there were some left over parts, or even a new series of gapped or un-gapped were ordered.
Thinking about wheel caps since around May 1949 with the small logo. This logo has about the same size as the hood emblem. For the pressing process of the caps, a gap makes technical sense and is necessary for the rounded wheel caps, but not necessary for flat hood or dash emblems. My 9´49 has 3 original wheel caps (with only one hole), but of course, all have gaps on the caps. |
If you replace ‘serious’ for ‘curious’ , then you describe my sentiment accurately here. And thank you for the genuine information - especially the outsourced emblem supplier names. Appreciate you responding seriously. I have sent a request to VW to ask if they have photos that can confirm the gapped logo was affixed in 1949, as per their inferred claim. Being the first model to carry this on the hood, you would expect so. I will let know how they respond. |
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VWdilemma
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2024
Posts: 14
Location: Queensland
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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| Lind wrote: |
| busben wrote: |
| Well that rules out the “Beastie Boys” theory |
We still have the "back to the future" theory of a time traveler going back with a giant bag of repro no-gap badges in his Delorean, right? |
I’m sure you were being tongue-in-cheek, but obviously I wasn’t floating the Beastie Boys as the only cause. It was to suggest it may have been a contributor. As for the “back to the future” theory - I guess that passes off as humour here? Okay, bravo then… |
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Scotty
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2003
Posts: 1553
Location: Northampton - Uk
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| Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2024 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Barndoor VW logo pod |
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| VWdilemma wrote: |
| I wasn’t floating the Beastie Boys as the only cause. It was to suggest it may have been a contributor. |
Now I'm not a historian, but I don't think the beastie boys were around in the 1940's
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| EverettB wrote: |
I'd be curious to know the length of his tip.
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http://scottys-stuff.blogspot.com/ |
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