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thesatanicmechanic
Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Charlotte, NC
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 Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 oil pressure issue |
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I am one of those lunatics that break in every engine with the oil i desire to run it on...
Synthetics.
Viscosity & oil pressure do not equal lubrication. Flow and wear resistance do.
Have not put anything heavier than 5W40 in anything I've built in 5 years. New ACVW, flat tappet domestics, and Asian lumps are always broken in on 5W30. Viscosities are then manipulated to achieve desired oil pressure characteristics.
all the way down to 0W20 or up to 5W40.
ZDDP numbers do not ensure longevity. ZDDP additives and exotic "break in" oils compromise engine life and durability.
/flamesuit on |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23124
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 oil pressure issue |
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| thesatanicmechanic wrote: |
I am one of those lunatics that break in every engine with the oil i desire to run it on...
Synthetics.
Viscosity & oil pressure do not equal lubrication. Flow and wear resistance do.
Have not put anything heavier than 5W40 in anything I've built in 5 years. New ACVW, flat tappet domestics, and Asian lumps are always broken in on 5W30. Viscosities are then manipulated to achieve desired oil pressure characteristics.
all the way down to 0W20 or up to 5W40.
ZDDP numbers do not ensure longevity. ZDDP additives and exotic "break in" oils compromise engine life and durability.
/flamesuit on |
Zddp has nothing to do with longevity whatsoever.
It is an anti-scuff additive. Its REQUIRED in type 4 ....due to the cam and lifter profile and to a lesser or greater extent in other types of flat tappet engines. After proper break-in....zddp is not a necessity....and most of us then run sythetics. Do not confuse what you get away with in a type 1 or a Harley....with what a type 4 requires. The issues with zddp and/or the lack of it...with regard to type 4 engines and cams are well known and documented.
How it works in type 1...is unimportant and not related..... to what happens in type 4.
This issue is what too many who work on type 1 and do not work on type 4...... do not get.
Also there have been quite a few issues with breaking in rings on synthetic oil. Sure....it can be done...but the cross hatch pattern and micro profile if the surface need to be optimized for synthetic oil....or you may never get a decent break-in on some engines. Ray |
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thesatanicmechanic
Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 oil pressure issue |
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Ray,
I've been reading what you've written and followed the advice you've given others for over ten years. You have literally forgotten more than I know about ACVWs and type 4s in particular.
However, I've digressed from you opinions on motor oil for quite a while.
Start a new thread or an email communication about zddp? I don't want to derail the thread about a guy that needs to buy a $20 oil pressure gauge to confirm he has an instrumentation problem. |
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Jubbly Bug
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2008
Posts: 79
Location: Skelton North England
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 oil pressure issue |
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I don't think its instrumentation that's the issue . Ive had the same problem with the gauge , the old idiot light sender and a new light.sender . You cant tell me they are all at fault . Yes id like to go out and buy a mechanical gauge to test this but unfortunately funds.don't allow at the moment .
Thanks to rays info I can spend some time.checking mechanical things hopefully finding something before I need to buy a gauge .
Jim
_________________
1971 Baja beetle
1987 T25/vanagon |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23124
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 oil pressure issue |
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| thesatanicmechanic wrote: |
Ray,
I've been reading what you've written and followed the advice you've given others for over ten years. You have literally forgotten more than I know about ACVWs and type 4s in particular.
However, I've digressed from you opinions on motor oil for quite a while.
Start a new thread or an email communication about zddp? I don't want to derail the thread about a guy that needs to buy a $20 oil pressure gauge to confirm he has an instrumentation problem. |
Yes...fot sure...we do not want this to get locked.
For now....from everything I have seen in this thread....oil type is not the issue....and most probably oil weight is only a part of the issue.
As a last word..... My whole and only point about oil weight and content is that for eons....mostly before oil and parts started changing.... we all got away with just following the book and doing nothing special.
For the most part.....the oil quality is so high these days that many if not most.....can still "get away" with it. In a good build with good parts.....your method would be better than most.
However where the type 4 is concerned.....far too often in the past decade .....we do not get away with it and the parts that can get destroyed.....are not as replaceable as type 1. So....I have been pushed to be more stringent on materials and methods.
I personally cannot financially recover from munching a $5-7k engine these days. Overkill is good to me..... 
But I agree......a mechanical gauge could tell the tale. Even a cheap water pressure gauge can tell you what you need to know. Ray |
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thesatanicmechanic
Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 oil pressure issue |
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| Jubbly Bug wrote: |
I don't think its instrumentation that's the issue . Ive had the same problem with the gauge , the old idiot light sender and a new light.sender . You cant tell me they are all at fault . Yes id like to go out and buy a mechanical gauge to test this but unfortunately funds.don't allow at the moment .
Thanks to rays info I can spend some time.checking mechanical things hopefully finding something before I need to buy a gauge .
Jim |
You haven't exchanged the instrument or eliminated the vehicle's electrical system from the equation for that matter to come to this conclusion about your readings.
Have a VW club around that you could borrow a mechanical gauge from? An automatic transmission rebuilder would have the diagnostic equipment you need too.
Really hope you get this sorted out. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27661
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 oil pressure issue |
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Sorry for bringing up the oil viscosity topic. Yeah it's a red herring far as what's going on. Just trying to GET THE WORD out, because it's a common mistake. We learn the hard way, you don't have to. All I know is.....
Location-england
Time of year- winter
Engine clearances-unknown, but good chance it's rod bearings are not as old as you think they are.
Have to mention it! I'd be wrong not to. Check those plungers. don't just look at them, MEASURE them. I've found ones worn down, too small, one that was shaped like a dunce hat, from some lowbrow poking it with who knows what.  |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23124
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 oil pressure issue |
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| modok wrote: |
Sorry for bringing up the oil viscosity topic. Yeah it's a red herring far as what's going on. Just trying to GET THE WORD out, because it's a common mistake. We learn the hard way, you don't have to. All I know is.....
Location-england
Time of year- winter
Engine clearances-unknown, but good chance it's rod bearings are not as old as you think they are.
Have to mention it! I'd be wrong not to. Check those plungers. don't just look at them, MEASURE them. I've found ones worn down, too small, one that was shaped like a dunce hat, from some lowbrow poking it with who knows what. |
Spot on.
I think we are all getting at the same thing. The oil viscosity issue.....red herring may be too strong of a word. We would be wrong....not to mention it....because it has been a known issue on VWs in general....and type 4s in specific.
But until you get totally away from the original gauge and sender.....and as thesatanic mechanic mentioned.....get away from the electrical system as well.....you cannot verify what it is NOT. Ray |
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Wilson
Samba Member
Joined: October 31, 2003
Posts: 102
Location: St.Paul,MN
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2025 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 oil pressure issue |
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I realize this is an old post but I still get great info from old posts so.....my engine (Type 4 - 2.0) was built by Jake Raby and he suggests 10w/30 in winter and 20w50 in summer. At the time he built it he still preferred conventional oil.
Take that for what it's worth, for anyone that knows his work you know that he has done a LOT of testing over the years.
What's the recent thoughts about conventional vs synthetic and how do they differ in the real world?
Thx,
Wilson |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23124
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2025 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 oil pressure issue |
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| Wilson wrote: |
I realize this is an old post but I still get great info from old posts so.....my engine (Type 4 - 2.0) was built by Jake Raby and he suggests 10w/30 in winter and 20w50 in summer. At the time he built it he still preferred conventional oil.
Take that for what it's worth, for anyone that knows his work you know that he has done a LOT of testing over the years.
What's the recent thoughts about conventional vs synthetic and how do they differ in the real world?
Thx,
Wilson |
Aside from any other pros or cons.....
synthetic oil generally is a lower friction product. Read that as it reduces friction beween the parts it is lubricating. That means it reduces wear and parasitic loss.
The problem with this MUCH lower friction is that it can prevent the required amount of friction we need to break in rings. We have much different rings than modern engines.
Synthetic oil also tolerates higher sustained temperatures
Synthetic oil also "generally" has a MUCH higher volume of detergents.
This means it cleans well and unlike conventional oil it tends to keep contaminants suspended instead of settling out and making sludge......but at the same time....the detergent packages also bind up with certain metals and minerals. You fan learn about that issue from Lake Speed Jr's site.
The higher detergent level can inhibit some of the important oil additives we need.
This is why, some of the metals and minerals WE NEED are not found in some of the synthetic oils at the volume we require for out flat tappet engines.
So, all of that good stuff said....reasons why you might not want to use synthetic for our type 4 engines?
1. While higher temp is nice.......conventional generally has a high enough temp range for us.
2. The vast majority of synthetic oils made for modern engines do not have the additive package our lifters and cams need. Some of them do though.
3. You certainly do not really want to use most synthetic oils for break in of OUR TYPE 4 engines.
But, once you get well broken in....say...7-10 miles.....you can probably switch to a synthetic oil.
Ray |
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Backtotheeightiesagain
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2023
Posts: 138
Location: Uk
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2025 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 oil pressure issue |
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Politics and oil threads are two things never to comment on.... so!!!
Synthetic oil makes engines last longer. Almost all modern engines use it.
It tolerates much more heat. Type 4 engines get hot. Probably more than when new and vw put it together. 130*c mineral is done in.
Expensive oil is cheaper than expensive type 4 engines (20,000+ from that bloke and no warranty).
There are specialist Synthetics that will do what the type 4 needs. Shop around.
I'm sure "JR" was recently recommending DT40 or DT50 oil from Driven (aka Joe gibbs). I'm sure as it's nascar and dyno tested with no unnecessary specs for new cars it will do.
Gone through amsoil 10w40 premium protection. Valvolene 5/50 racing. Other brands are available...
I've put up with low oil pressure on startup. I'm sure tappet clattering is related. Anyways synthetic always seems to help hydraulic tappets.
Still no wiser on low oil pressure on type 4 though.
Being careful with that strainer bolt may help or someone starting to remake decent quality oil pumps.
Here's hoping someone will make a book with everything for type 4 like those how to hotrod type 1 etc |
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