Where to install an hard start relay ?

[Glenn]

[glutamodo]

You can see in the 12V Bosch WR1 diagram above that they used a 15 amp fuse and I've seen those blow. And if you look up the specs, you'll see why. The pull in current is very brief but it can go a lot higher than 15 amps.

We always changed those for 25 amp fuses.
_________________
Andy T.

"What is Glutamodo, Horror of Toyko, besides total, fiendish, quality-a-you brain!"

[scrivyscriv]

Here's where I installed a hard start relay on my 1967 beetle.
The current draw is not exceptionally high so don't over think the wire length. It's only powering the solenoid, not the entire starter motor.

_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help.

[62ItalianRagtop]

Thank you very much !!

So should I use a 25amp fuse ?

I ordered this fuse box and I will install it on the red cable from WW relay to battery positive (30 pin on realy).

https://www.amazon.it/dp/B005BP55PO?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title
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LOOKING FOR 62 ENGINE WITH NUMBER FROM 6.904.xxx TO 6.915.xxx
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[glutamodo]

We never had any pop at 25, but those were all 12V applications.

6V, by nature, has higher current draws. According to that VW chart, the holding current on 6V was 18 amps, so you need go at least with a 20 amp fuse, and I'd start with 25.

Oh, you're going with an GBC style fuse then. The fuse holder on the WR1 was a ATC style blade fuse and that's what I was talking about when I was talking fuse sizes.

10 years ago, just to have around, I bought a couple of generic 12V power supply relay kits on eBay, these came with ATC fuse holders. And since I have them kicking around already that's probably what I would use.

_________________
Andy T.

"What is Glutamodo, Horror of Toyko, besides total, fiendish, quality-a-you brain!"

[62ItalianRagtop]

Thank you, I'll update you with photos of the assembly.
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LOOKING FOR 62 ENGINE WITH NUMBER FROM 6.904.xxx TO 6.915.xxx
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[Schnitzelfuss]

Take the relay and harness, a piece of paper and a pencil. Sketch out the relay, which color wire comes from which pin on the relay, and draw where you plan to connect that wire on the car.
Then learn how the electricity should flow, beginning at the battery, when you switch the ignition key on, then where it should go when you move the key to Start.
If the kit you bought doesn’t not have instructions, or no fuse is mentioned, understanding how it all works will also inform you as to whether you need to splice a fuse into the circuit. They can’t hurt but often are not needed. A relay just moves the power connection to the powered component- this case the starter- away from some other switch. In this case, the ignition switch. If the ignition circuit wiring is already protected by a fuse, then the relay will be as well.
Once when YOU are comfortable with understanding how it all should work, only then should you wire it up.

[glutamodo]

Now, in the VW, there IS NO FUSE for the starter solenoid circuit. It might use the fuse panel as a junction point but it does not pass through any fuse. The igntion switch gets "raw" terminal 30 in and terminal 50 out goes straight to the starter solenoid.
_________________
Andy T.

"What is Glutamodo, Horror of Toyko, besides total, fiendish, quality-a-you brain!"

[Schnitzelfuss]

Yup.
Remember the reason we add this relay is to extend the useful life of the ignition switch.
So why would the relay need one? Again, it won’t create any hazard to add one, but- if the engineers at VW decided not to protect the original ignition circuit wiring with a fuse, then why add one when adding a relay? Fuses protect wiring. Wiring is sized according to the amperage requirements of the component receiving power, and the wiring length needed to deliver the power.
If the relay is mounted closer to the starter than the ignition switch, its wiring is the same size as the original harness, and the starter draws the same amperage as the original starter did, then the new circuit, including the relay wiring, would be subjected to less heat than the original design wiring. That would actually reduce the risk of overheating the wiring in the circuit.
If I’m missing something here please let me know, I don’t claim to be an electrical engineer.

[62ItalianRagtop]

Here some installation pictures on my 62:

I also added a fuse on positive red cable from battery postive to relay.

I have to fix the relay to the tunnel
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LOOKING FOR 62 ENGINE WITH NUMBER FROM 6.904.xxx TO 6.915.xxx
http://tettodistraccio.blogspot.com/

[runamoc]

[62ItalianRagtop]

Hi guys, unfortunately the results obtained are not what I expected.

Everything works but the starter is not more powerful than before.

I cleaned all the connections but something is still wrong.

I think that if I make wrong connections or if the relay is not working, the starter would't work. Do you agree?
Do you agree that with the relay I should feel a boost when starting?

What tests could I do to understand the problem?

Here's a recap of the connections made:

BLUE WIRE (85 on realy) --> connect to wire attached to terminal 50 on solenoid (wire from ignition)
RED WIRE (30 on realy) --> to battery positive with 16A fuse
BLACK WIRE (87 on realy) --> terminal 50 on solenoid
BROWN WIRE (86 on realy) --> to battery negative

Thank you
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LOOKING FOR 62 ENGINE WITH NUMBER FROM 6.904.xxx TO 6.915.xxx
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[glutamodo]

The starter motor itself won't change in power. All you are doing is getting more voltage to the solenoid. It's an electromagnet that pushes the gear onto the flywheel while also closing a switch inside there that makes an electrical connection from the battery terminal to the motor windings. Once the solenoid "throws" the motor is going to behave as it always does.
_________________
Andy T.

"What is Glutamodo, Horror of Toyko, besides total, fiendish, quality-a-you brain!"

[Glenn]

All it does is bypass the, 60 year old, starter switch and provide a shorter run from the battery to the starter.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי

[62ItalianRagtop]

Hi all, thanks for the explanations and for your patience

I made two videos to better explain the problem I'm having with starting.


Link



Link


As you can hear, the starter doesn't turn smoothly; it's as if it sometimes hits an obstacle and gets stuck.

I completely rebuilt the starter a few years ago (bearings, armature,brushes).
The electrical system was completely rebuild about 10 years ago.
A new ground cable was installed two month ago between the frame and the transmission.
The 6V Optima battery is about 11 years old.
The starter shaft bushing was almost certainly replaced 10 years ago.
Igniton switch changed with a new one one year ago.
I also cleaned all the connections.

One more thing: I have a 1385 engine with an Engle W100 camshaft and two 34 Solex carburetors.
Is it possible that the starting problem is due to the engine's higher compression compared to a stock car?

What else do you think could be the problem?
What else can I check ?

Thank you
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LOOKING FOR 62 ENGINE WITH NUMBER FROM 6.904.xxx TO 6.915.xxx
http://tettodistraccio.blogspot.com/

[KTPhil]

"The 6V Optima battery is about 11 years old."
Even Optima doesn't last forever. This must be on its last legs.

"The starter shaft bushing was almost certainly replaced 10 years ago."
Replace it. Can be a PITA but it can be done. Between not being sure it was replaced, and ten years of starting, it's probably worn out.

This also sounds like a fouled flywheel ring gear, which is made worse if the starter bushing is worn.
_________________
Current Fleet:
- '71 Fastback
- '69 Westfalia
Retired:
- '67 Beetle
- '65 Beetle (x2)
- '65 Bus
- '71 Squareback

[Eric&Barb]

[EVfun]

[Eric&Barb]

[runamoc]