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58Dub
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 1713
Location: Davison, MI
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 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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wonder if we ever landed on the moon?????????
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58 Beetle (now just a pile of parts in the corner)
60 Beetle (2221 turbo under construction)
70 Beetle Baja project |
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| 58Dub wrote: |
| wonder if we ever landed on the moon????????? |
they say the sky's the limit, but how can that be if we have footprints on the moon?
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Zwitter
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2003
Posts: 226
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:10 pm Post subject: mis matched color body panels |
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Knowing this topics initiator, 61 snrf, he wrote me privately asking me to offer my thoughts on this topic. I have been an auto painter for 39 years. And in the 70's and 80's I worked on so many vintage VW's that I have lost count.
I have seen original paint cars that under their top color coat was a different factory applied color. I have seen several original black cars that had different color hoods on them, as if that sheet metal part was too nice, too straight not to be fitted to a car destined for black paint.
Everyone seems to place VW as some godly car builder. They were a mass production manufacturer, and not ever single car came out perfect.
All car companies have entire departments dealing solely with body and paint damage repairs. VW was no exception, so they did what they had to.
I can say more, but I know that there are just as many so called "experts" who will NEVER be swayed by what I have seen time and time again.
Really why waste my time trying to convince anyone. I'll choose to believe what I have seen, they can choose to believe what they want to. |
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8702
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiCojp22cj8
go to 5:30
It says the entire body is repainted if a flaw is discovered but I find this hard to believe. Maybe because its a promotional video they say that and the fact that is an austrailian plant |
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SkooobaSteve
Samba Member
Joined: March 23, 2005
Posts: 3152
Location: Dothan Alabama
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silvertonguedevil
Samba Member
Joined: September 26, 2010
Posts: 1697
Location: Vale, OR
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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What a cool video!!!
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-Greg |
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Keith
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 3632
Location: Brodheadsville, PA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, i cant believe how haphazardly they paint those bodies yet they come out looking so good. And its amazing to see how rough the workers are when they assemble them yet when one of us assembles a freshly painted car we tape off damn near everything and go at a snails pace!
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Formerly known in the forums as "OVALTEEN"
"I firmly believe that some villagers from Botswana could probably build a better road than PennDot."- Splitty
"If you do anything to your car someone will hate on you for it. People absolutely love to complain and find fault with others. Don't let it bother you. Just live and have fun."- Lind |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3481
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| derluftwagen wrote: |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiCojp22cj8
go to 5:30
It says the entire body is repainted if a flaw is discovered but I find this hard to believe. Maybe because its a promotional video they say that and the fact that is an austrailian plant |
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Glad you posted that You Tube, I bet some would not believe it. That You Tube video is not the first time I heard cars were repainted in entirety if a flaw was found, in fact that is the first time I've seen that You Tube so thanks for the post. If you can't believe in the source, then who can you believe? Any of you ever been to Wolfsburg? Last time I was there they were saying the same thing only it was with Rabbits. Hard to believe you can have faith in a product and not believe the people who make it.
Now I'm going to have to question everything in my factory service manual I've been using for forty five years!
Thanks for ruining my day and mow my sleepless night thinking I might have done a procedure wrong. |
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61SNRF
Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2009
Posts: 4656
Location: Whittier 90602
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Helfen wrote: |
| derluftwagen wrote: |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiCojp22cj8
go to 5:30
It says the entire body is repainted if a flaw is discovered but I find this hard to believe. Maybe because its a promotional video they say that and the fact that is an austrailian plant
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Glad you posted that You Tube, I bet some would not believe it. That You Tube video is not the first time I heard cars were repainted in entirety if a flaw was found, in fact that is the first time I've seen that You Tube so thanks for the post. If you can't believe in the source, then who can you believe? Any of you ever been to Wolfsburg? Last time I was there they were saying the same thing only it was with Rabbits. Hard to believe you can have faith in a product and not believe the people who make it.
Now I'm going to have to question everything in my factory service manual I've been using for forty five years!
Thanks for ruining my day and mow my sleepless night thinking I might have done a procedure wrong. |
Yes, I wouldn't take this video too serious for practical reference. How can we be certain that it mirrored the procedures used at Wolfsburg? It's kind of like the owners manuals, somewhat generic. Notice they also mention at about 3:20 that they first dip them in "black paint" before the primer. I have never seen any evidence of that on US or Euro Beetles, nor have I had the opportunity to see an actual Australian built 60's Beetle to look for it.
One thing is true though, VW had the reputation of having some of the finest paint on any vehicle in any price range in the 60's, so that was something that they paid a lot of attention too.
Who knows what the quality control system was like? Yes, we can only guess now.
I asked for Zwitter's opinion on this because of him being a professional painter I know he has seen many more examples than me. We first observed and began discussing and developing ideas on this subject in his shop over 35 years ago. This is nothing "new" to us. This did not occur in the 80's, 90's or the New Millennium.
Our mutual friend who is the bodyman is also the one who's Dad had the '71, and he owns the '58 I mentioned too. I have asked him to take some pictures of his '58's hood hinge bolts so we can see that it has never been off after painting.
Some things that suggest to us that it was not done at an aftersales body shop...
Every sample has the same consistent gray primer/sealer between coats. We know that body shops can and do use different paint systems, dealer or not.
Every sample has perfectly matched factory color paints under factory color paints. If it were done in aftersales, then wouldn't there be a greater chance that the tone or color of the paints would not be right, or a completely different color all together?
The two samples I mentioned with multiple layers, the '71 Marathon Beetle and my old '67. The Super was only about 5 years old at the time. It had more than three coats of paint under the eventual Metallic Blue. How on Earth can you explain why a used door was installed on four different cars in a five year period? Oh yeah, at a dealer of course with factory pack paint? On my '67, I now recall it had more than three colors on it. So how can you explain a used decklid being on first a VW Blue car, then sold and installed on a Java Green car, then sold and installed on a a Ruby red car, then sold and installed on a Savanna Biege car? All with perfectly matched paint, same thickness of application, and same color of sealer between coats. Not likely, don't think so, never in a million etc.
I didn't start this topic to convince the non-believers or talk about the origins of the Universe, but to discuss other ideas and opinions on why and how it occurred with interested parties with similar encounters with similar cars. If you have not seen or touched one in person, then I believe you are fully informed to comment.
I look at them as to what is considered an "error" in the collectable field, such as mis-stamped money, stamps, Baseball cards, Hot Wheels or whatever. Very rare, but only desirable to a small fraction of collectors.
I will continue looking and asking for good reference samples, and will post pictures of them when they become available.
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3481
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Glad you posted that You Tube, I bet some would not believe it. That You Tube video is not the first time I heard cars were repainted in entirety if a flaw was found, in fact that is the first time I've seen that You Tube so thanks for the post. If you can't believe in the source, then who can you believe? Any of you ever been to Wolfsburg? Last time I was there they were saying the same thing only it was with Rabbits. Hard to believe you can have faith in a product and not believe the people who make it.
Now I'm going to have to question everything in my factory service manual I've been using for forty five years!
Thanks for ruining my day and mow my sleepless night thinking I might have done a procedure wrong.[/quote]
Yes, I wouldn't take this video too serious for practical reference. How can we be certain that it mirrored the procedures used at Wolfsburg? It's kind of like the owners manuals, somewhat generic. Notice they also mention at about 3:20 that they first dip them in "black paint" before the primer. I have never seen any evidence of that on US or Euro Beetles, nor have I had the opportunity to see an actual Australian built 60's Beetle to look for it.
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My 65 had the original paint L360, and when I painted it in 1973 I took most of the car down to bare metal. I didn't see any black paint or dark gray primer or any other color paint besides sea blue and L. gray primer. One thing though if it makes any difference, my car is a 111. I also painted my 64 113 in 1979, and took that car down to bare metal and I never saw any black paint/primer on it nor any other color going down to metal. That car was and is painted L-87 pearl white.
A local guy near me has and restored a 54 Aussie sunroof. Next time I see him I'll ask about that black Paint/primer.
D. |
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theastronaut
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 1640
Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Just look at the hood hinge bolts. If the panel has been off, the paint will be cracked and damaged around the bolt heads, since the cars were painted assembled. If the hoods were swapped out at the factory before being repainted, then the paint around bolts should show this.
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Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'66 Chevy C10
Too many '88-93 Festivas to count |
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elrick67
Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2007
Posts: 10
Location: glendora ca.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| What a crazy subject. I seen this for years.I worked on 46's to a new beele cabrio,just today.I have seen this mostly 60s era and some early 70,s I have seen one on a 50,s beetle. I own it.It,s 58 sedan Light bronze metallic and has hardly any paint left on the top surfaces,The original paint is mostly gone on the hood and has sealer and then Agave green showing.A 58 color.I got this car from the original owner.He owned it for 50 years. I've only seen this on VW Beetles, no other makes of cars. The hood has never been off. So what,s the deal. |
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silvertonguedevil
Samba Member
Joined: September 26, 2010
Posts: 1697
Location: Vale, OR
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:33 am Post subject: |
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it says special and discreet restoration. The restoration part is definitely discreet. I like the car, but it is not restored.
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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61SNRF
Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2009
Posts: 4656
Location: Whittier 90602
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Nice find Greg. This car fits the parameters of the mysterious body parts perfectly!
Funny how the most common ones seem to be Ruby Red California cars with Sea Blue under the topcoat. I recently missed a chance to document another original paint Ruby Red '66 that a local friend found in a barn. It had Sea Blue under the original paint on the right front fender. No pictures, but elrick67 was with me there that day and saw it too. My thinking is that Red is such a hot color, it detracts the eye from seeing any defects as badly as they would show on a dark blue, black or dark green car.
I'm pretty sure this has all come to light because of the survivors being more common here in California. You just don't see them elsewhere as you would here. After years of hot UV's beating down on them, the truth comes out!
AFA the "restored" parts of this particular car, that subject has it's own post 
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=201726
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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Funny you should say that, it is the most recent post in that thread. I made the same comment there. 
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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hitest
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Joined: September 30, 2008
Posts: 10326
Location: Prime Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| derluftwagen wrote: |
My theory on the subject is that VW inspectors found a flaw in the paint/body work on the assembly line and replaced the part (hood, fender, decklid etc) with a fresh one right off the line in matching paint. The damaged part was then repaired and sent back to the line to be installed on another car which was then painted a different color.
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couldn't have said it better myself- oh, wait, I did on page one.
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| EverettB wrote: |
I wonder what the nut looks like.
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'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '64 L87 311, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '68 L30k 141, '71 L12 113, '74 ORG 181
FU#5 |
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61SNRF
Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2009
Posts: 4656
Location: Whittier 90602
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| hitest wrote: |
| derluftwagen wrote: |
My theory on the subject is that VW inspectors found a flaw in the paint/body work on the assembly line and replaced the part (hood, fender, decklid etc) with a fresh one right off the line in matching paint. The damaged part was then repaired and sent back to the line to be installed on another car which was then painted a different color.
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couldn't have said it better myself- oh, wait, I did on page one. |
That is if you expand "damage to paint/body work" to include panels that were not pressed well enough to fit to a black car
We have two experts here that will testify that they have never found any evidence that these panels have had any body work done on them at all under the very base coat of color. No bumping, grinding, filing or even feathering of a paint chip. They have only been sanded and sealed before the ultimate topcoat was applied. Add to that the limited color variations that are seen leads them to a different theory.
We know they made ~5000 cars per day, then they also needed ~5000 right doors, ~5000 right front fenders and so on. They tool up a line of presses to make L/F fenders that week, and pop out 100,000 or so. Not every press is perfect, not every die is perfect or cleaned of debris. Not every panel comes out perfect as a result. Some poor ones are better suited for white car, which hides waves and deformities, and some are good enough for a black car, which shows every one.
In essence, their theory stands as the parts were swapped because the panel was not good enough for a Black car, but would work well on a white car.
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-Bruce
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8702
Location: PNW
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Joel
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006
Posts: 11099
Location: NSW Australia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| derluftwagen wrote: |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiCojp22cj8
go to 5:30
It says the entire body is repainted if a flaw is discovered but I find this hard to believe. Maybe because its a promotional video they say that and the fact that is an austrailian plant |
I've seen quite a few original paint VWs out of the aus factory that weren't without faults.
One of my 74 1300s was a classic example.
I bought it from the 84 year old lady who owned it all its life and my boss at the garage had serviced it since new.
Never been repainted, only had touch ups on the fenders where she was constantly scraping things but the main body was all original paint.
There were several big runs in places not overly noticable like under the dash, under the hood and even under the fenders and I've seen that on a few others the same.
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1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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