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hbays
Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2006
Posts: 213
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
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 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Drivability and low maint. for me. I just need a nice pull between lights and not a cervical neck injury.  That is outrageous though! |
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MinamiKotaro
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2008
Posts: 1039
Location: Somewhere in TN
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| jamestwo wrote: |
| why not bigger cylinders? my 2332 made 210 hp and 199 ft-lbs of torque on Jake's Dyno |
I've been wanting to make a long stroke/small bore engine. It'd be a tractor engine, and I love tractor engines. 
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1967 VW Beetle
2276cc
MegaSquirt-extra v3.57
Check out my ongoing story. |
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stoneloco808
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2007
Posts: 658
Location: Pakalolo Country, HI
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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How much HP do "we" "need"?
Tough question as everyone's individual needs differ. Many have used the original stocker to put around in for decades. Some like a bit more punch instantly when the right foot suddenly gets "heavy". Many have built various engine combos but don't have the bench race figures of 0-60 times, drag strip time slips, or engine dyno numbers as some don't have the access to one or don't really care about those figures. Some engine combos are built out pure satisfaction of building an engine. The OP should ask themself that same question keeping in mind budget and overall use of this particular engine build. IMO one of the best way to narrow down an engine combo is to take a ride in a friends car with known engine parts list. But then again it would be sort of a bad thing, as it would really kick off the bench racing between friends while this engine is being built. |
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Sharig1979
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| I've got a Turbo 1915 with tall gears and tall wheels and it works well. Pulls pretty hard when it opens up, spools quickly, and we're talking about 130HP. |
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Chip 
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2008
Posts: 1007
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| miniman82 wrote: |
| Only way I'll get boost in 1st at this point is anti lag (which I don't currently have), till then I'll have to wait for 2nd gear. |
Well, do it already! It's not like it's all that tough to setup... |
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lupin..the..3rd
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2009
Posts: 1800
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| modok wrote: |
| but the peak hp is interesting too since it allows us to imagine how fast it could accelerate, and what the top speed could be. |
Ugh, you're joking, right? Top speed and absolute acceleration are what are important in a daily driver? 
Jake is absolutely right. A broad flat torque curve is what you want on the street, peak hp doesn't much matter.
| modok wrote: |
| I suppose then we could also add duty cycle at peak hp. What would that be...30% maybe? |
Once again, duty cycle at peak hp is absolutely 100% irrelevant on a street car. And 30%? Really? So for every hour of driving you do, your motor is at 6000 rpm with the gas pedal on the floor for 20 minutes of that hour?
Broad flat torque curve is king for a daily driver. It's the reason a 90 hp TDI motor will out-accelerate a 120 hp gasoline motor in highway passing maneuvers. |
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Turbo_Manx_Maniac
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2004
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| lupin..the..3rd wrote: |
Broad flat torque curve is king for a daily driver. It's the reason a 90 hp TDI motor will out-accelerate a 120 hp gasoline motor in highway passing maneuvers. |
Also the reason a C6 Corvette is a great DD, and why I don't worry too much about street driven VW's.  |
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79SuperVert
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9757
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of "need", on my drive yesterday on the Garden State Parkway, all I "needed" to maintain the speed limit was 40 hp.
I'll stop now. 
_________________
Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27719
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| lupin..the..3rd wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
| but the peak hp is interesting too since it allows us to imagine how fast it could accelerate, and what the top speed could be. |
Ugh, you're joking, right? Top speed and absolute acceleration are what are important in a daily driver?
Jake is absolutely right. A broad flat torque curve is what you want on the street, peak hp doesn't much matter.
| modok wrote: |
| I suppose then we could also add duty cycle at peak hp. What would that be...30% maybe? |
Once again, duty cycle at peak hp is absolutely 100% irrelevant on a street car. And 30%? Really? So for every hour of driving you do, your motor is at 6000 rpm with the gas pedal on the floor for 20 minutes of that hour?
Broad flat torque curve is king for a daily driver. It's the reason a 90 hp TDI motor will out-accelerate a 120 hp gasoline motor in highway passing maneuvers. |
Were'nt you the "what crank for 7000rpm" guy? hehe Yes I do use full throttle, sometimes for minutes, sometimes as high as 5500-6000 rpm. We have mountain passes here, and have you ever driven a VW bus?? I never got a speeding ticket in my bus, and not for lack of trying!
I was just jabbing Raby for making fun of our peak hp comparison thread, I mean, what are we supposed to use instead of hp, we'd have to invent a new and more advanced unit of engine power. Hp has been the standard.
Last edited by modok on Fri May 14, 2010 8:38 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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RailBoy
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2008
Posts: 2904
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: What horsepower Do We Really Need? |
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Modok, You just like the way it sounds when you put your foot in it,lol...
Oh, by the way Modok, got my Single 44 IDF 2110 tuned, runs great.. Should this be part of the post, it applies... Detuned 2110 by means of a single carb works for me.. Not to big, not to small, plus it is not a high budget motor as well.... RB |
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perrib
Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2004
Posts: 3402
Location: Chandler, Az
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| vugbug68 wrote: |
 not again! |
I like that.  |
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kielbasa
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1443
Location: Garbage Grove, CA
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Marv [UK] wrote: |
you only need a handful of HP to maintain any given speed and (theoretically at least) you can't exceed 65 MPH anyway, so why do you need a super fast car?
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to get to 65mph in the least amount of time possible. after that, its just a bonus 
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joe cool
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2006
Posts: 1262
Location: Yolo County CA
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Too bad this isn't a poll.
I've survived the daily drive for the past 9 years with a 1600sp (in a '64 reduction geared bus) so I say a theoretical 57hp is enough. But I really wouldn't want to go any lower than that, at least not in a bus. It's merging onto the freeway that's the bitch, some onramps are so short / steep I'm still in 3rd and 45-50mph by the time I hit the slow lane where a big rig might be doing 60-65. Gotta keep your wits about you and be prepared to abort. Given enough acceleration time I've been as fast as 75mph. |
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Geardo
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Lafayette,LA
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 7:04 am Post subject: |
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The only time I had enough power was when I rode a turbocharged Hayabusa with 325rwhp, zero to 170mph in 8 sec
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71 KG Coupe
65 Corvair Corsa Convertible
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Mountain Minstrel
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2009
Posts: 984
Location: Sonora, CA
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| Geardo wrote: |
| The only time I had enough power was when I rode a turbocharged Hayabusa with 325rwhp, zero to 170mph in 8 sec |
And if you rode all the time, you would be looking for more power. HP is an addiction.
_________________
Ken
69 Westy
99 S-10
04 Miata (Sold)
| Desertbusman wrote: |
| Maintenance doesn't mean repairing it when it breaks. That's called repair. |
| miniman82 wrote: |
| Don't listen to him, people from Fresno are retarded. |
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donivan_p
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2009
Posts: 29
Location: Batesville, MS
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The only time I had enough power was when I rode a turbocharged Hayabusa with 325rwhp, zero to 170mph in 8 sec |
Was that on Tony's bike at noproblem?
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volkschaser
Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2010
Posts: 6
Location: Ohio,USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:13 am Post subject: |
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For the people who want to win the drag race off the line, low-end torque is the answer, and lots of it. An F-250 5.4L is the ideal driver for these people, cuz the acvw isn't the answer, really. For those of us who want to merely get up to speed, keep up with traffic, and do it a bit more nimbly, than the acvw fits the bill.
Before my stock '76 becam a parts donor, it was a daily driver. I had no problems in traffic. Top speed for me was 75, without being suicidal.(try coming out from beside a tractor trailer at that speed, and find a stiff cross wind.  ).
IMO, put your money towards keeping it reliable, then if there is any left over, add HP.
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Stripped66
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3509
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| volkschaser wrote: |
For the people who want to win the drag race off the line, low-end torque is the answer, and lots of it. An F-250 5.4L is the ideal driver for these people, cuz the acvw isn't the answer, really. For those of us who want to merely get up to speed, keep up with traffic, and do it a bit more nimbly, than the acvw fits the bill.
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Did you notice that this is the "Performance - Engines/Transmissions" forum? This is not the "Stock - Engines/Transmissions" forum.
You sound like an elitist hiker who complains about rock-climbers taking the shortcut up the mountain
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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Marv [UK]
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2009
Posts: 2225
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| volkschaser wrote: |
For the people who want to win the drag race off the line, low-end torque is the answer, and lots of it. An F-250 5.4L is the ideal driver for these people, cuz the acvw isn't the answer, really. For those of us who want to merely get up to speed, keep up with traffic, and do it a bit more nimbly, than the acvw fits the bill.
Before my stock '76 becam a parts donor, it was a daily driver. I had no problems in traffic. Top speed for me was 75, without being suicidal.(try coming out from beside a tractor trailer at that speed, and find a stiff cross wind. ).
IMO, put your money towards keeping it reliable, then if there is any left over, add HP. |
You can have both Just at the expense of ....er..... expense. Cheap, fast, reliable blah blah blah.
The ACVW is the answer for those that ask the right question. If you want a plastic ford, go buy one but a properly built old skool cal look motor will still piss on a fords chips up to 65.
ACVW engines have some benefits over a behemoth V8 that far outweigh the ability of a big block to produce ultimate power.
They are cheap... well thats the owners too, but even the seriously high end motors that certain people build can still be insignificant to that of a high roller hemi.
The VW motor can rev high and get there fast. the inertia involved in getting to 9000 revs for a flat 4 is way less than that of a V configuration with everything pressing down.
They are simple to figure out and build. No fecking about with water jackets and water pumps and the like. no radiators to worry about and the motor can be fitted with a couple of spanners and a jack. You don't have to get some mechanic with an engine hoist to do your work for you.
They were designed for 47 HP SAE from a 1600. the fastback got 10 more. How many other motors do you know of where you can slap on 300 bucks worth of crap and boost power by 20%?
Low end torque isn't always the answer for getting off the line quick. Ever seen anyone do a 9K launch with a close ratio gearbox? HP is torque, it's just a matter of where it is in the curve. A lot of modern cars (certainly in europe anyway) have cams that are happiest at 3000 revs. they suck at torque as they aren't designed for it. They are designed for economy.
The OP's Question was how much HP do you need. Well, the answer is simple.... as much as you want. I'm happy with 110 in my bus but it would be just as good with 70 or 150. Half the fun is getting a 47HP motor to make big numbers and the other half is seeing someones face going "WTF! VW's are slow aren't they?"
If you want cheap HP, go buy a ford. If you want big HP, go get a loan else, just get a life and stop hanging around on forums else you might end up as sad as us lot... or even worse, modok!
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The opinion of the author as expressed does not always reflect that of the author nor does he extend any apologies or assume any liability or responsibility for its content or lack thereof or for any lack of humour of the reader of any content at all, anywhere, ever. The reader agrees to all risk by reading it and is advised that any ‘issue’ is theirs alone as they chose to read it. |
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DOOM buggy Florida
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2010
Posts: 92
Location: FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| turbo your low compression engine. dont run too much boost and you get alot of bang for your buck. a basically stock motor w/ a small turbo kit from lowbugget.com will give you great drivabilatiy w/ the ability to increase boost and run race fuel if you really wanna go, engine may blow up but like i said low boost and it will stay alive and make good power and fuel economy. blow up the motor and get a new longblock and swap all your turbo shit over and back in business. if i wanna haul ass i jump on my GSXR drag bike, 200 hp 400 pounds. |
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