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Romy
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006
Posts: 169
Location: The Kerkin, NM
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 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:52 am Post subject: |
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I have to say, for all the epic amounts of fab work and awesomeness in this build, I love that there's a random set of used (?) brake shoes on the floor of your car in the shifter relocation pics.
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-Romy
1977 Bus - ASI Riviera
1972 Bus - Westy converted to Adventurewagen (Bubbles)
1970 Baja Bug |
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JKZ Racer
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2011
Posts: 81
Location: High Desert CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject: 67' Baja Build (My Baja Resurrection Project) |
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| Junk2Funk wrote: |
| I have to say, for all the epic amounts of fab work and awesomeness in this build, I love that there's a random set of used (?) brake shoes on the floor of your car in the shifter relocation pics. |
Thank tou Junk2Funk... I did use those brake shoes in the front..LOL.
they had very little use to them.. my plan is to go to disc later..Looking into making some type 4 front disc fit...the spindles on the type 4 have very similar dimensions to my combo spindles.. |
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JKZ Racer
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2011
Posts: 81
Location: High Desert CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:50 pm Post subject: 67' Baja Build (My Baja Resurrection Project) |
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Heres some update to my build..Been working on modifying my type IV Cvs to get my 18" of travel out of them..I begain by cutting my axles that I had in half and then pressed them into 1 1/4 120. wall tubing..
I lengthend the axles to 23" in length and install the cv and bolted them in...Cycled the suspention and found them to be to long..but the cv work at full droop...This made me think of a way to get more travel for the axle. I took the star and machine some more clearance into them...
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JKZ Racer
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2011
Posts: 81
Location: High Desert CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: 67' Baja Build (My Baja Resurrection Project) |
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Made a filler bracket/body support.. I made a bracket out 1/16 sheet metal that attached to the main hope and the upper seat belt bolt in the B Piller. and holds the filler for the cell. Never New a 1967 bug would have american bolts in it..The upper seat belt bolt was 7/16-20 ..I kept useing metric taps to figure out what size it was..
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JKZ Racer
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2011
Posts: 81
Location: High Desert CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: 67' Baja Build (My Baja Resurrection Project) |
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So Came across a little dilemma in my build.. I m having aproblem with my steering geometry.. let see if any fellow Sambaians have had any trouble with their steering.. I have played with the rack location back and forth and up down and rotated it on the beam.. My problem is with the steerin ackerman..I believe the outter wheel when turn hard right or left steers to far inward..thus creating a push effect...
Im using a Latest Rage Rack with for International tie rods..The beam is 8" over and 4x2.5 front trailing arms with 15.5" of travel ..I know their something Im not seeing..Any Ideas will greatly be appreciated...
this is an old pic from earlier in the build..
Last edited by JKZ Racer on Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Longrifle
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2010
Posts: 313
Location: Chino Hills, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I'm still impressed with your build regardless of the dilemma. This may not be much help, but recheck or triple check the measurement from both sides of the tie rod end to the intersecting relationship with the center point of the rear transaxle. If they do not intersect at the exact same angle, then the Ackerman geometry will be off while turning. I'm sorry if I offend your intelligence, as it appears you're WAY AHEAD OF ME with your fabrication skills!
1. Does the rack & pinion steering have a steering stop of sorts like that on a stock steering box? That might not be the correct answer as the turning radius would still be off, assuming the measurements are off as well.
2. Would the length of the tie rod itself be an issue in determining correct steering / turning angle in regards to Ackerman?
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Longrifle
67’ sedan
66’ SO-42 |
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JKZ Racer
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2011
Posts: 81
Location: High Desert CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:42 pm Post subject: 67' Baja Build (My Baja Resurrection Project) |
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| Longrifle wrote: |
I'm still impressed with your build regardless of the dilemma. This may not be much help, but recheck or triple check the measurement from both sides of the tie rod end to the intersecting relationship with the center point of the rear transaxle. If they do not intersect at the exact same angle, then the Ackerman geometry will be off while turning. I'm sorry if I offend your intelligence, as it appears you're WAY AHEAD OF ME with your fabrication skills!
1. Does the rack & pinion steering have a steering stop of sorts like that on a stock steering box? That might not be the correct answer as the turning radius would still be off, assuming the measurements are off as well.
2. Would the length of the tie rod itself be an issue in determining correct steering / turning angle in regards to Ackerman? |
Thank you Longrifle... I am in no way offended Longrifle..I appreciate the input. I will be rechecking my my steering arms in relation to the rear center line...
The Rack does Have stops on it, but both were equally set. As for the tie rod length affecting the Ackerman this I am not sure of..If one was longer than the other ,than I could see it affecting the Ackerman..But this is not the case in my dilemma.. In my case it doesnt matter if which way the car is turned (left or right) the outside wheel tends to want to push(skid). Hopefully I'll be able to work on the baja this wknd. I have been searching the forums to see if someone has check their midtravel beam for Ackerman angles.havent come across anything yet... |
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Longrifle
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2010
Posts: 313
Location: Chino Hills, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Just a thought, but assuming your toe-in is set correctly to begin with, I can't figure out why your steering would be under or over steering on the outside wheel. Since you don't have wheels on your car, is the toe-in set at 1/8" toe'd-in? If so, the wheels should be turning at the same rate and should end up with proper Ackerman turning angles, so I'm missing a piece of the puzzle too. It's got to be something right in front of your face that you(we) haven't realized yet, obviously.
I over analyze everything and start over and double check everything, like the old saying, "Measure twice and cut once." Maybe tomorrow I can stop by and talk to an acquaintance of mine that owns his own business and professional racing team. He's involved in the Lucas Oil Pro 2 series racing and is a seasoned driver / owner. I've been to his shop several times and drooled at his race trucks and toys. I'll see if he or his other mechanics can give some advice. No promises, but it's worth a shot. I'll post back tomorrow regardless.
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Longrifle
67’ sedan
66’ SO-42 |
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Longrifle
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2010
Posts: 313
Location: Chino Hills, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:08 am Post subject: |
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I didn't forget about you. I talked to my friend today and have some ideas for you to ponder. It's been a long crappy day, so I'll post a long reply again tomorrow and discuss issues with Ackerman, toe and bump steer as it relates to your rack and pinion steering.
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Longrifle
67’ sedan
66’ SO-42 |
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Longrifle
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2010
Posts: 313
Location: Chino Hills, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Ok, it's been a crappy 2012 at work so far! Time for a late night post!
I talked to my friend and showed him the pics of your Baja. He had numerous suggestions that quite frankly left even more confused. Here's some bullet points and his suggestions.
1. Move the rack farther left and back, closer to the driver and more in-line with the tie rod mounting points on the spindle. This will reduce angles in your steering column / link and tie rod angles, making them less swept backwards.
2. He thinks part of the problem could be the rack itself, although it's a common setup with buggies and Baja's. He said the rack is too narrow and suggests fabricating a slave rack that is wider, turning your 14" rack into something like 20-24" wide. He said you can use square or tube stock that attaches to the rack mounting points and extends left and right, even offset, to Heim joints on the ends for the tie rod connections.
3. Since your torsion tube appears stock width and your trailing arms have been widened and lengthened, all of the geometry / angles have changed and now introduce a host of exaggerated problems with toe, Ackerman and bump steer.
4. Off road bump steer is common if kept to small angles such as 2 degrees or less. He said any more than that and your front end could be bouncing all over the place.
5. As to why Ackerman angle is off.....dunno, probably related to everything above?
Now, this is my opinion: I don't have the automotive engineering degree to give such advice. I can only argue what works for a stock setup as Ferdinand Porsche already figured this shit out for me / us. Don't go running out to the garage and torch the Baja just yet. Seek additional advice and continue your research until you have a definitive answer. I hope this helps you or at least gives you some other viewpoint to solve your dilemma.
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Longrifle
67’ sedan
66’ SO-42 |
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Failproof
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2011
Posts: 140
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| First let me say that this is my first post with thesamba crowd! I have been reading and enjoying for some time! In answer to your outside wheel appearing to have a higher degree of turn than the inside, it does. It has to do with the fact that the tie rod mounting point is not inline with the king pin. So the arc of travel for the inside or outside. Tie rod mount is different. As the outside mount for the tie rod nears the point that it is inline with the king pin then the rate of turn for that wheel accelerates. Watch your wheels as you turn them. They will seem to turn at the same rate then at the last second the outside will gain degrees exponetially right before lock. It is even more exagerated as the tie rod mounting point passes the king pin line! |
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Failproof
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2011
Posts: 140
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=882605 This appears to be the same arms? Spindle? And box as you are using. My beam is 47 inches from tube end to end (iirc). It will fight return to center after full lock, but less than1/4 turn of wheel it is back to normal. |
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JKZ Racer
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2011
Posts: 81
Location: High Desert CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:41 pm Post subject: 67' Baja Build (My Baja Resurrection Project) |
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| Longrifle wrote: |
Ok, it's been a crappy 2012 at work so far! Time for a late night post!
I talked to my friend and showed him the pics of your Baja. He had numerous suggestions that quite frankly left even more confused. Here's some bullet points and his suggestions.
1. Move the rack farther left and back, closer to the driver and more in-line with the tie rod mounting points on the spindle. This will reduce angles in your steering column / link and tie rod angles, making them less swept backwards.
2. He thinks part of the problem could be the rack itself, although it's a common setup with buggies and Baja's. He said the rack is too narrow and suggests fabricating a slave rack that is wider, turning your 14" rack into something like 20-24" wide. He said you can use square or tube stock that attaches to the rack mounting points and extends left and right, even offset, to Heim joints on the ends for the tie rod connections.
3. Since your torsion tube appears stock width and your trailing arms have been widened and lengthened, all of the geometry / angles have changed and now introduce a host of exaggerated problems with toe, Ackerman and bump steer.
4. Off road bump steer is common if kept to small angles such as 2 degrees or less. He said any more than that and your front end could be bouncing all over the place.
5. As to why Ackerman angle is off.....dunno, probably related to everything above?
Now, this is my opinion: I don't have the automotive engineering degree to give such advice. I can only argue what works for a stock setup as Ferdinand Porsche already figured this shit out for me / us. Don't go running out to the garage and torch the Baja just yet. Seek additional advice and continue your research until you have a definitive answer. I hope this helps you or at least gives you some other viewpoint to solve your dilemma. |
Just want to say thank you again Longrifle for your reply and help..
Since it being saterday I get to spend some time working on the baja.
I have been thinking about what your friend said and will look at my front end thourghly and remeasure and see if some of his theoryies will help in my dilema .. I did come across somethin the other day..I just measured from the center line of the rear wheels to the center of the King pin. My steering arm on the spindle is supposed to line up with this line for correct Ackerman. it does not. It is about 3/8 of an inch off..This is what I going to try and fix and get the steeriing arm to line up.
Rather than cut the spindle up. I made some spacers for the front trailing arms to move the arm out further so the steering arm lines up.. . Im doing this just to prove a theory...If this works I will be making a new wider beam and a parallel beam..Like you said Longrifle if i left it like Ferdinand Porsche designed it. I would have no problems..But the fact that I wanted lost of wheel travel out of a sort of stock design gave me some things to figure out on my own...thanks again for your help in my dilema..And I will try and post some pics of my progress today...
Last edited by JKZ Racer on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:02 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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JKZ Racer
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2011
Posts: 81
Location: High Desert CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject: 67' Baja Build (My Baja Resurrection Project) |
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| Failproof wrote: |
| First let me say that this is my first post with thesamba crowd! I have been reading and enjoying for some time! In answer to your outside wheel appearing to have a higher degree of turn than the inside, it does. It has to do with the fact that the tie rod mounting point is not inline with the king pin. So the arc of travel for the inside or outside. Tie rod mount is different. As the outside mount for the tie rod nears the point that it is inline with the king pin then the rate of turn for that wheel accelerates. Watch your wheels as you turn them. They will seem to turn at the same rate then at the last second the outside will gain degrees exponetially right before lock. It is even more exagerated as the tie rod mounting point passes the king pin line! |
Thanks Failproof ..For veiwing my post and your reply to my dilema...I will be looking at what you had mentioned about the steering arm in relation to the king pin..I will try and post some more detailed pics.. |
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Longrifle
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2010
Posts: 313
Location: Chino Hills, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Good, I'll be waiting to see some pics when you solve the puzzle and we'll all benefit from the learning experience. I'm having a learning curve of my own as I've pulled the engine out of my Baja today to install new pistons / cylinders. I'm just hoping it's not going to be a full tear down for main bearings....fuuuuudge (only I didn't say fudge).
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Longrifle
67’ sedan
66’ SO-42 |
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JKZ Racer
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2011
Posts: 81
Location: High Desert CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:10 pm Post subject: 67' Baja Build (My Baja Resurrection Project) |
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So its been a long monday ..trying to get my pics off my phone to the computer and resize them all...so i can get them posted on here ..
I did make some progress and will post my pictures soon.. |
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JKZ Racer
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2011
Posts: 81
Location: High Desert CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Longrifle wrote: |
| Good, I'll be waiting to see some pics when you solve the puzzle and we'll all benefit from the learning experience. I'm having a learning curve of my own as I've pulled the engine out of my Baja today to install new pistons / cylinders. I'm just hoping it's not going to be a full tear down for main bearings....fuuuuudge (only I didn't say fudge). |
So how did the piston and cylnders go for you Longrifle ? |
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Longrifle
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2010
Posts: 313
Location: Chino Hills, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Piece of cake....just need to put everything else back on! Work continues to get in the way...so it will have to wait a few more days 
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Longrifle
67’ sedan
66’ SO-42 |
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JKZ Racer
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2011
Posts: 81
Location: High Desert CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: 67' Baja Build (My Baja Resurrection Project) |
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So Just aliitle update ...Still trying to work out my steering Ackerman problem ...Tried to make somespacers to align the steering arm on the spindle to the center line of the rear wheels...I did get close ..and did get closer to fixing my Ackerman angle but not close enough..With the spacer I made I did get my bump steer down to less than a 1/4 in 15.5inches of travel ..I also gain a little travel ..Haven t yet messured it to give you guyz actual numbers yet...so heres some pics of the spacers i made to try and solve my problem...
I did make two different width spacers 3/8 and 1/2"..
sacers being installed...
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JKZ Racer
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2011
Posts: 81
Location: High Desert CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:27 pm Post subject: 67' Baja Build (My Baja Resurrection Project) |
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So heres another little update ..I ordered my master cylinders and a clutch slave from Appletree waiting for them to show up???  ..I also place a order to summit racing for my brake fittings and hoses...I just love summit...Only if they carried VW parts too....I did notice they carry springs for coil over shocks at very reasonable cost..so i might place another order for some coils...I am getting closer to drivability.. 
So next to do,will be some pluming of brake lines and clutch slave..
still working on the steering and need to fab the driver side body support.
and install my firewall and foot wall.. |
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