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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16790
Location: North Florida, USA
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 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| MountainBeetle wrote: |
| One thing I can’t find info on is the bypass screw in the carb you adjust. I know the volume screw is screwed in til it bottoms then screwed out 2.5 turns as a base level, but roughly where should the bypass screw be as a start point? |
Initially adjusting the larger bypass screw 2.5 turns out from bottom should be good enough to get it idling. You can go 3 turns if you like. It will just idle a little higher.
You mentioned the small brass accelerator pump nozzle reliably squirts fuel every time the pedal is depressed. This squirt alone should get enough fuel into the intake to get the engine to catch and run for a second or two. You can try two methods:
1) Press the accelerator pedal to the floor and then hold it there. This adds fuel into the intake and provides max air flow to clear out a flooded condition.
2) Depress the pedal half way to the floor then release it before cranking with the throttle closed. This adds some fuel but then chokes off air flow and helps if there is a lack of fuel to get the engine running. This is the VW recommended method for starting hot engines which can boil off all fuel in the intake before you restart the engine.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 33545
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| Don’t forget about replacing the condenser too. I believe it’s supposed to be checked every oil change, according to Bentley. |
My two VWs run vintage German 009 distributors from the 1980s, purchased brand new then. They are on their factory condensers still.
Disclaimer: I don't necessarily recommend others to do similar.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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MountainBeetle
Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2022
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
You mentioned the small brass accelerator pump nozzle reliably squirts fuel every time the pedal is depressed. This squirt alone should get enough fuel into the intake to get the engine to catch and run for a second or two. You can try two methods:
1) Press the accelerator pedal to the floor and then hold it there. This adds fuel into the intake and provides max air flow to clear out a flooded condition.
2) Depress the pedal half way to the floor then release it before cranking with the throttle closed. This adds some fuel but then chokes off air flow and helps if there is a lack of fuel to get the engine running. This is the VW recommended method for starting hot engines which can boil off all fuel in the intake before you restart the engine. |
So the first option produces a backfire every second or so time I try it, whereas the second option doesn’t get any result. Albeit that might be the result of doing option 2 a few times followed by option 1.
I tried the static timing where you use a test light grounded on the alternator and the croc clip on the negative of the coil, but rotating the distributor as in this video below didn’t get a light to come on, despite the crank notch being at top.
Link
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1969 Beetle, 1978 Beetle, 1978 T2 Panel Van
Last edited by MountainBeetle on Wed Dec 25, 2024 10:38 am; edited 3 times in total |
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MountainBeetle
Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2022
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
Did you read the Speedy Jim page 2x??? It says lacking a compression gauge you can check compression by rotating the crank pulley and feel resistance twice per pulley rotation. This is the cylinder building pressure. If you don't feel this you should be worried. If you can feel the resistance move on and run the other tests. When you get your new compression tester in hand you can come back and test each cylinder. You don't have to wait.
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I did this and could feel and hear the compression.
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16790
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| MountainBeetle wrote: |
| So the first option produces a backfire every second or so time I try it... |
This sounds like your ignition timing is way off or your valves are getting stuck open.
Step1 - Check your valve gap (engine cold) and then watch all 8 valves (1 cylinder at a time) as you hand rotate the crank pulley. Watch each valve open/close for each cylinder. You are looking for something odd like a valve not opening or getting stuck.
Step2 - Follow the steps on Speedy Jim's page called "The Test". This walks you thru confirming your distributor is correctly setup to deliver a spark to the #1 cylinder when it is at the end of the compression stroke. It does this without assuming anything and bases it on valve movement which is technically camshaft positioning. When the #1 cylinder is positioned to receive a spark it will be BOTH at TDC AND both valves will be closed.
The distributor's job is to deliver a spark to the cylinder when it is at the end of the compression stroke. "The Test" confirms this is actually true.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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MountainBeetle
Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2022
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
This sounds like your ignition timing is way off or your valves are getting stuck open.
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Any idea how a car’s timing can all of a sudden just go so far out of whack?
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16790
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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What was the chain of events between good running and no longer able to start??
You mentioned the vacuum canister was not working? Even though it was caused by a leaking vacuum hose and sticky distributor internal mechanism. This would not normally cause idle problems as the vacuum advance is not meant to be active at idle. Unless your idle timing had been set w/ vacuum advance active (connected to wrong port on carb). When it fails from the leaking hose it would retard the idle timing.
What is your current static timing? You can check this with a 12v test lamp or VM. In most cases the static timing will be between TDC and 7.5 BTDC.
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 53231
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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When you had the plugs out for gapping did you do one at a time?, or were both out simutaniously?, are the wires numbered?
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MountainBeetle
Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2022
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
What was the chain of events between good running and no longer able to start??
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It ran fine with no issues for half a year. Then when the temperature dropped suddenly from 10c to minus 10c in a couple days, it coincided with a sudden struggle a few hundred yards into the minus 10c journey. The accelerator was close to unresponsive suddenly, with a floored gas pedal having nearly no impact on the revs which dropped off from normal to nothing and stalling over maybe 5-8 seconds. The car would restart and go as if nothing was wrong for maybe 100 yards more, then revs would drop away again suddenly regardless of speed or gear, with no amount of floor on the gas pedal halting the slide to zero revs and a stall. Because it was so sudden and without any other warning, I had thought it was somehow caused with the cold weather, as without other indications I thought it was reasonable to conclude this, hence my fiddling with the spark plugs (as the manual says in very cold weather you can shorten the gap), and then coming on here asking for ideas when that made no difference.
I’m used to doing plugs, points, brakes, brake lines, and other basic stuff, so this is the first time I’ve looked into other areas like carb and vacuum. I kind of jump at any thing that’s slightly wrong in the hope it’s the thing to be corrected (the vacuum, the vacuum sludge, the carb jets etc.), yet no dice so far.
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MountainBeetle
Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2022
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| When you had the plugs out for gapping did you do one at a time?, or were both out simutaniously?, are the wires numbered? |
I’ve had them out maybe a dozen times over the month, initially because of the aforementioned cold snap passing (see previous post), but then due to thoughts of flooding (checking for fuel on them, which did occur once). I think nearly every time it was all gapped at once, so all out at once. The wires aren’t numbered but I follow diagrams for placement as I can’t remember the order. I have sometimes still connected them wrong despite diligence.
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4215
Location: WA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| Sounds like your original problem is a clogged heat riser (pipe under intake manifold), gas in oil is probably ruptured diaphram in the fuel pump, and it won't fire is because you changed a bunch of parts without knowing what the problem was. Remove dist. cap and rotate the motor until the rotor points to the notch at the edge of dist. body the rounded notch on the pully should be close to the case split, now remove the #1/2 valve cover and see if #1 rockers will wiggle if so replace valve cover and replace dist. cap and grab #1 sparkplug wire at the cap and at the plug and gently tug the wire to make sure you are holding #1 wire not #2 if all is good look down at the dist. cap and check the firing order, it should be 1,2,3,4 going CCW, if that is correct finally run a jumper wire from the battery + to the coil +, now give it a shot of "sure start" and crank it up (remove jumper to stop motor). |
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MountainBeetle
Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2022
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| Starbucket wrote: |
| …, and it won't fire is because you changed a bunch of parts without knowing what the problem was.. |
She is now up and running and your view is true as I still don’t know the original cause. I did the static timing with a light this evening and this time it worked, although I had various problems with the mounting of the distributor. I also took out the cables from the cap and carefully ensured I had the right order.
Link
Thanks everyone for helping me these past couple weeks, especially your input over Christmas. I had a half day at work, then family meal, then watched Die Hard, then did the timing and she ran. All your input has been fantastic. Thanks for making my Christmas!
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 26364
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| If he’s getting at least some backfires, we know the ignition is probably working okay enough for now to move on. It sounded to me, from the start, like there’s a fuel problem, maybe debris in the idle jet and/or fuel bowl. |
To have backfiring one needs spark, and fuel. More likely timing is off, possibly after market junk distributor clamp has allowed the distributor to rotate. Plus with the adjusting the points for 0.016" gap will affect the timing.
As for carb settings it would be good to know which carb.
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 53231
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| MountainBeetle wrote: |
| She is now up and running ........ |
Good job! 
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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heimlich 
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 7580
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| MountainBeetle wrote: |
She is now up and running and your view is true as I still don’t know the original cause. |
Just go with it. You'll figure it out next time. It could have been something as simple as a condenser. Bad condensers make the ignition act really weird.
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3388
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| Don’t forget about replacing the condenser too. I believe it’s supposed to be checked every oil change, according to Bentley. |
My two VWs run vintage German 009 distributors from the 1980s, purchased brand new then. They are on their factory condensers still.
Disclaimer: I don't necessarily recommend others to do similar. |
I don't have my Bentley handy to post the section I read it in, I'm sorry, but I do recall seeing it in perhaps the routine maintenance section. It was an advisory to "check" the condenser. As long as there are no engine problems, I don't see a need to ever replace a condenser. It will show itself when it goes bad.
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Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
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MountainBeetle
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Joined: October 23, 2022
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2025 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| MountainBeetle wrote: |
She is now up and running and your view is true as I still don’t know the original cause. |
Just go with it. You'll figure it out next time. It could have been something as simple as a condenser. Bad condensers make the ignition act really weird. |
It has now happened again, so I’ll try to work out exactly what is wrong.
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MountainBeetle
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Joined: October 23, 2022
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2025 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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I had a recurrence of the same issue from December last year. I think I’m maybe a little closer to working out what was wrong both times. Last time around I changed the spark plugs, put on new spark plug cables, did the points and condensor, the rotor head, the distributor cap, checked and cleaned the grounding strap from the starter motor, I think I changed the starter too, cleaned the carb, changed the air filter, degreased the vacuum advance lever, changed the vacuum pipe holders to ensure no leakage, bent the pipe the right way so it reached the right height in its bend, checked the wiring, changed the electric box for the hard start relay, and a couple other things. Eventually it started and it didn’t seem like all those things caused the issue, just one or two combined, and I couldn’t work it out.
Couple weeks ago the car had a misfire and then died within about half a mile after spluttering to a halt. I put in a new coil and it started up fine again, got about a half mile, then the same thing happened again.
After many hours I eventually found the cables in the hard start relay were loose (but not detached). Would it be fair to assume this potential frequent dropping of voltage as the car bounces along the road and these cables move a little, this would cause damage to the coil, hence when the new one went it it didn’t last long?
Another new coil is in now with the cables re-headed and tight, and she’s running fine again.
Link
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16790
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2025 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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| MountainBeetle wrote: |
Couple weeks ago the car had a misfire and then died within about half a mile after spluttering to a halt. I put in a new coil and it started up fine again, got about a half mile, then the same thing happened again.
After many hours I eventually found the cables in the hard start relay were loose (but not detached). Would it be fair to assume this potential frequent dropping of voltage as the car bounces along the road and these cables move a little, this would cause damage to the coil, hence when the new one went it it didn’t last long? |
Unless you have some uncommon wiring for your Hard Start Relay (HSR) it should have nothing to do with your engine running after it is started. For example, you should be able to start your car using the HSR and then REMOVE the HSR from the car and should have no trouble until you next need to crank the engine.
“spluttering to a halt” suggests you have a fuel problem. Ignition problems usually (but not always) appear like someone turned the key to the OFF position while driving.
Next time it happens, pull off to the side of the road where you can safely work on the engine. Without cranking the engine (which would make the fuel pump push fuel into the carb) remove the top of the carb and look down into the fuel bowl. Proper Pict carb fuel bowl level is 3/4” from top. Is it empty/low? This suggests a fuel delivery problem (clogged filter, dirty lines, fuel pump issues, float problem, etc).
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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MountainBeetle
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Joined: October 23, 2022
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2025 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle totally refuses to fire. Any ideas? |
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When it happened, when accelerating harder it stumbled, but was fine with low speed (up to 35mph) and slow acceleration.
I’ll look into the carb.
I do have a cylinder that at operating temperature is at 91psi when the rest are 107-109, which in itself is problematic and needs rectified.
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