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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:43 am    Post subject: performance waterboxer motors Reply with quote

Anybody out there have experience with building/driving big waterboxer motors? How about the Gowesty 2.4L?

I'm planning on putting one of these in my 85 westy. Going to run aftermarket throttle bodies and a fuel/ignition engine management system.
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85jacamper
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just installed a 2.2L Go Westy engine to my 85 Vanagon camper. Can't really floor the engine yet because of the break-in period. But I made it up the SLO hill with no problem at all.

Wanted to put in a 2.4L but it got prohibitively expensive.
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Phil G
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A contradiction in terms . . Laughing
Too expensive, for so little return on your money. If you want REAL horsepower at a fair price and like the thought of improving reliability at the same time, I would do a conversion using the 2001 or newer Subaru EZ30 motor. This is a normally aspirated 3.3 ltr. flat six that will more than double the HP and torque of the original motor. It is smoother, quieter, and has equivalent fuel mileage numbers. It will also run cleaner and add 2,000 usable rpm before redline, while only adding 60-80lb to the car. This motor will go 60k miles without anything but oil changes, and 300k before an overhaul. With a good deal on a wrecked donor car, you could probably do a home shop conversion for about $7-8,000 all up including A/C. There is no way you could get this kind of power out of a Wasserboxer without turbocharging, and it would cost more and be an unreliable P-O-S. There are plenty of other motor conversion options, but when you factor in all of the variables like servicing, ground clearance, lid clearance, output, reliability, comfort, towing characteristics and so on, this seems to be the sweet spot. When my 87' motor packs up - or sooner, this will be the way I go. This next year I'm going to start putting together all the parts I need so when the time comes I'll be ready. This will also spread the cost out over time.

Some cool things about this 'next generation' gas engine:

Direct fire - No distributor or wires.
electronic variable valve timing
4 valves per cylinder
electronic variable intake runner lengths
Variable exhaust backpressure valve
Phased injection
Reynolds 370s high silica aluminum castings (Alusil)
Lifetime water pump
Serpentine accessory drive
High efficiency A/C compressor
7 main bearing forged billet crank
Low mass, large journal pistons and rods
Small bores and mild rod angles.
firing order enhances usable torque and smoothness without added mass of a counter-rotating balancer

Of course, I don't have an opinion about any of this stuff Very Happy
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ianstone
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil G wrote:
A contradiction in terms . . Laughing
Too expensive, for so little return on your money. If you want REAL horsepower at a fair price and like the thought of improving reliability at the same time, I would do a conversion using the 2001 or newer Subaru EZ30 motor. This is a normally aspirated 3.3 ltr. flat six that will more than double the HP and torque of the original motor. It is smoother, quieter, and has equivalent fuel mileage numbers. It will also run cleaner and add 2,000 usable rpm before redline, while only adding 60-80lb to the car. This motor will go 60k miles without anything but oil changes, and 300k before an overhaul. With a good deal on a wrecked donor car, you could probably do a home shop conversion for about $7-8,000 all up including A/C. There is no way you could get this kind of power out of a Wasserboxer without turbocharging, and it would cost more and be an unreliable P-O-S. There are plenty of other motor conversion options, but when you factor in all of the variables like servicing, ground clearance, lid clearance, output, reliability, comfort, towing characteristics and so on, this seems to be the sweet spot. When my 87' motor packs up - or sooner, this will be the way I go. This next year I'm going to start putting together all the parts I need so when the time comes I'll be ready. This will also spread the cost out over time.

Some cool things about this 'next generation' gas engine:

Direct fire - No distributor or wires.
electronic variable valve timing
4 valves per cylinder
electronic variable intake runner lengths
Variable exhaust backpressure valve
Phased injection
Reynolds 370s high silica aluminum castings (Alusil)
Lifetime water pump
Serpentine accessory drive
High efficiency A/C compressor
7 main bearing forged billet crank
Low mass, large journal pistons and rods
Small bores and mild rod angles.
firing order enhances usable torque and smoothness without added mass of a counter-rotating balancer

Of course, I don't have an opinion about any of this stuff Very Happy



i'd probably go this route eventually too...

but with only 61k original miles on my 87 engine, i think (hope) that wont happen for YEARS Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: performance waterboxer motors Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Anybody out there have experience with building/driving big waterboxer motors? How about the Gowesty 2.4L?

I'm planning on putting one of these in my 85 westy. Going to run aftermarket throttle bodies and a fuel/ignition engine management system.


Yeah, i have a homebrew 2.3L in my '84, and all i can say is: Don't do it. There just isn't enough flexibility in the engine to do big (ahem) displacement stuff. You can drop BIG bucks on a piston/cylinder set (not available when i did mine), or you can stroke the motor and deal with high compression issues. I am sure the GoWesty stuff is thought out, and i've driven one of their 2.4s mounted to a 5sp, and it was freakin sweet, but for that kind of cash, i'd gladly go subie. Or, if i had more cash, i'd even more gladly go TDi.

Fact of the matter is, the WBX is an older technology engine. It is based very closely to a 1930s design. Stock, i think it is fine, and in retrospect, i should have stuck with the 1.9. For more power, switch it out.

-damon
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just converted my first Vanagon to Subaru power. I installed a 2002 Legacy Outback 2.5 liter rated at 165 hp and 166 lb/ft of torque into an 89 Star Blue Wolfsburg Edition.

While I'm still making some final adjustments, I can confidently say this is the perfect Vanagon engine. The van pulls strongly in every gear and still has the cool Wasserboxer sound.

These engines can be had for $1500-$2000 with 50,000 miles on them. Conversion parts easily add another $1500 to the equation, but the value is definitely there. It completely modernizes the Vanagon.

I've been a Vanagon driver off and on since 1987 and unlike some others I don't think the Wasserboxer is a complete disaster. If someone is happy with the level of power it provides, I'm all for staying with it. However, I think if someone wants increased power the Subaru EJ22/25 makes way more sense. A GoWesty sounds appealing with its forged Wiseco pistons and all, but a 2.4 will cost way more than an EJ25 conversion, and you'll still have less power, less refinement, less fuel economy, quirky Digifant system, and most likely less durability.


Dave Clymer

04 Audi A4 3.0Q
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a 2.4 go westy motor a year ago. Since I was paying a mechanic to do the removal and install it was cheaper for me to go the go westy route than the suby conversion (computer, wiring harness etc etc etc).

I like the motor, it has lots of power for mountain driving but my max speed is 70mph if I want to stay in the "green zone".
So far the troubles I've had with my go westy motor are: the drain plug leaked from day one. Lucas the owner of go westy offered to pay half of the expense to have that fixed. Really nice of him huh? HALF! Secondly a few months ago the 10 month old engine started leaking from what I thought was the rear main seal. It turned out to be leaking from the seam beneath the rear main seal. Go westy offered to pay 5 hours @ $35.00 per hour for the shop to JB weld this seam shut and would not warranty the work but said the shop doing the work should warranty the work. The shop doing the work said they wouldn't warranty the leak....they were just doing what go westy asked them to do. By the way the shop charged 8.9 hours at $62.00 per hour for this job BUT go westy only paid 5 hours at $35.00!!!! I never expected to get a motor with such rudimentary problems for $5000. Spend your hard earned money wisely!!!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone done one of theses? I emailed the guy and they make an entire kit and will ship it to you. I would like to hear some more about these engine conversions.


http://www.bostig.com/


http://www.bostig.com/products/zetec/
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:47 am    Post subject: Re: performance waterboxer motors Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Anybody out there have experience with building/driving big waterboxer motors? How about the Gowesty 2.4L?

I'm planning on putting one of these in my 85 westy. Going to run aftermarket throttle bodies and a fuel/ignition engine management system.
I just had a 2.4 Gowesty motor put in (87 Westy) no leaks ,works great. I'm only at 800 miles Smile so we'll have to see about long term... I'm happy. Last time I called they had 23 motor orders on their waiting list.. Lloyd
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saw a Suby SVX 6 on ebay for $750 the other day. Confused
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Downtown, please keep us informed on your experience with the 2.4. I am thinking about going that route to, but some of the comments have me worried.

A progress report on your motor would realy help!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:38 pm    Post subject: my home brew WBX Reply with quote

Just got back from a 2000 mile adventure with the 1.9L engine. No problems, just slow up the hills. But much better after the tuneup, new throttle body (borrowed), header and exhaust (s&S). By the way, it was a lot of fun installing the exhaust....

We do a lot of camping, so ground clearance is a concern for me. That's why I decide the WBX route. Plus I just bought a new AC compressor. Motor should be done in Feb. Will keep updating the post on how it goes.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking hard about driving down to go westy from Vancouver BC to have them install one of their engines price is ovious a major concern for me, so I haven't made my mind up as to what size yet probably the 2.2. Another concern is I'm heading down to Baja from there and will have to keep the revs down I think around 3000rpm. I'am also concerned of the many possible problems that could arise with a new engine on my trip down to Baja. Not likely my BCAA is going to work down there! Maybe I should just take my old 300000km engine and put new heads on it, might be a safer bet?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been looking at the cost of having engine, transmission and clutch (basically all new drive chain) done in a shop. Here are some numbers I came up with using $75/hr labor, this also includes all the necessary parts for conversions. If you can do it yourself you save around $2k. If you don't need to do a clutch or tranny it is going to be less.

Small Car 3300 230hp $14,260 Sub
Go Westy 2200 105hp $8,250 VW
Go Westy 2300 115hp $9,145 VW
Small Car 2200 130hp $10,435 Sub
Self Convert 2.2L 130 hp $7,266 Sub
H&R Motors 2.2L 130 hp $10,500 Sub
TiiCO 135hp $9,200 IL4
Bostig 130hp $9,980 IL4
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tomswesty wrote:


Self Convert 2.2L 130 hp $7,266 Sub


that sounds a little high for a self done conversion? i've been looking into this conversion myself, along with a VW I4 conversion and i figured about $3500 with engine included for each(but i already have a 95 2.0 ABA)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The costs include a rebuilt transmission and new clutch, starter, all new hoses, alternator, new ps pump, new injectors, etc; if you are doing just the engine, yes the costs are less and you are right with that amount depending on how much work you put into your donner engine.

I was looking at fixing everything at once instead of engine, transmission, clutch in seperate parts. Might as well do everything then you know you have a good system that works instead of wondering when the tranny is going to fail, or the clutch goes out, or the engine gives out.

Just my $0.02
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to bash anybodies idea of converting to another type of motor. I have converted two aircraft from piston to turbine power, a Cessna 206 and 207. I put an allison 250 in them. I got an additional 120 extra hp flat output to 10,000' (the 206 would climb from sea level to 10K in 4.5 minutes!).

It was a neat conversion, performance was great. Nobody could work on it but my guys or myself. When I went to sell them it was near impossible. I had to sell the conversion, then the aircraft each time.

Personally, I wanted to put a TDI in my Syncro. But after its all done, you have to mod the mounts, exhaust and electronics to get it in. Then you really need to change the gearing. And finally the fuel system needs a bit better planing if you want to use bio-diesel or homebrew.

I decided to do the work myself (albeit my employees) to create my own version of the GoWesty engine. Lots of performance techniques can be applied to the engine, and I see upgraded fuel injection system that provide knock protection on the event horizion. Personally I don't mind being a bit slower, I just want to go uphill faster. If I want speed a rolling brick is not the ideal platform, and there is something to be said to keeping to mostly stock.

Cheers,
James
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject: conversions are hard to sell Reply with quote

When you convert to a non-standard engine, in most cases you lose value and have a hard time selling it.

I'm not building this to sell, so it is not my main concern, but definitely on my mind.

I will be using aftermarket fuel injection and engine management.

still buidling it -- just slow.

will keep updating
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darryl Barber wrote:
Maybe I should just take my old 300000km engine and put new heads on it, might be a safer bet?

The GoWesty heads are done by a machine shop. They are good. So are the big valve heads from Boston Bob. Here's my take. Be sure your engine is bascially good. That means good leak down and good warm oil pressure. Check out: http://volksweb.relitech.com/21rodbrg.htm and http://www.bostonengine.com/articles/low-oil-pressure.htm If your engine is checks good then do the heads. At the same time do all the hoses and belts and maybe the waterpump. See vanagain.com for the hoses. Basically freshen the outside of the engine. I think you should be good, if all the common things that break are fine. It is all the little outside things that can kill a trip. Later you can reuse a lot of the new parts for a fresh engine. But read the articles and do some more looking around.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure how to start this. I know I need an engine sometime in the future (this year?) A 1.9L Westy automatic is almost as slow an 82 diesel Vanagon. It is OK on the flats. Hills suck. Dog notes that too, I read. My engine is a big unknown, other than it does not leak and it has good vital signs.

I too flip flop between subby and a GoWesty. Honestly, in my heart of hearts I have to have the more stock approach. My VW master tech buddy with 30+ years experience blew his subby up. He was not paying attention. Bang. Dead. Fine it was easy to fix, just stick another one in. But, what about in ten years as Japs do not like to keep parts available?

So this is not the first time I have read of GoWesty assembly related problems. With a 2 month wait with a backlog of 23 engines, they are humping it mass production style, I bet. Can't run a shop and build engines well at the same time. It don't work. PLUS, a good friend reported just getting all the pieces and they sure do recycle a lot of parts. That crank was 30/30. Not for me. So like Dogpilot, I think I am going to have to roll my own. The heads I will buy. I may get their cam and pistons. The rest I can do in peace myself. Or have a good place like Rimco do it. I have the a running core 2.1 (leaks a LOT of water)

Doing it myself in my time, I will know I did it right and will have inspected it piece by piece. My friend will install it in his shop and we may just assemble it in a corner of his engine clean room. Then I know what I have. I just do not have the warrenty, which seems to be executed rather poorly, I think. Actually, I think it is a joke, really.

What do you all think about that?
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