Gasser to Diesel Conversion

[vegagon]

I have tried to sift through the threads, but with little luck. Anyone out there know how tough it would be to put a 1.9 tdi or European 2.4 diesel into the back of my gasser? My local mechanic thinks I'm nuts....I think I am looking to build a nice highway machine and am very realistic about the budget. I love my Wolf Westy, but am looking for more low-end torque, better light-towing capability, and also better mpg with a possible future conversion to veggie. I just turned 225k on my gas 2.1 and will soon need to replace it. While I have the running gear pulled, I will also be completing a laundry list of improvements/repairs/resto and will be making a significant investment. Why not go Diesel? What pitfalls need I look out for? Is my mechanic right?

[klucz]

I too am very interested in this conversion, but funds restrict me for now. An investment in a TDI now may be expensive, but it'll payoff with future gas prices/biofuels by far, in my opinion.


http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/vanagon/TDI/interior1b.html


"Why I am installing a TDI motor
in my Syncro Westfalia Vanagon:

The tables below compare given speeds at indicated rpms/horsepower/torque with different engine/gearing/tire combinations. It is fairly obvious that the TDI provides more hp at nearly any given speed even with "taller" 3rd & 4th gears and taller tires! With the "chipped" TDI it is even more so!

Even better, I expect my fuel consumption to go up from 15-17 mpg at present to 28-31 mpg after the transplant!

(the tables don't transfer well, the address is at the bottom)

Off road example:

At 6mph I will have approx. 72hp available to me with the stock TDI vs. approx. 50hp with the Wasserboxer. The "chipped" TDI will have approx. 92hp at 6mph -- almost double!


Highway example:

At 63mph I will have approx. 80hp available to me with the stock TDI vs. approx. 74hp with the Wasserboxer. The "chipped" TDI will have approx. 105hp at 63mph in 4th gear!

Back to "Sunny's Vanagon/TDI conversion page"
(haywood-sullivan.com/vanagon/)


Me thinks ya on good path
_________________
84 Westy 4spd sold

[metalwoodstone]

Go for a 1.9l td conversion! with a few engine mods you can get A) more low end tourque B) better fuel economy . I run a vw 1.9l td, pre tdi These engins came in canadain jetta golf passat in the years 93 - 97
cheaper to do than the tdi because of the lack of electronics. Easier to
maintian and work on as well. Check out vwdeisel.net and read up on
the idi section, specifically posts by libbybapa. Also check out Scott Foss
at TurboVans ( google it )in oregon. These things make bomber veggie engines, and with the right mods you can get alot of old skool diesel power

[?Waldo?]

[Witless Joe]

[jeremysmithatshawdotca]

What sort of mods would you do to a 1.6 td?

[klucz]

some stuff on biodiesel and dual fuel system Vanagon, they also have some TDI cars on their website

this is the tank they recommend for Vanagons (dual system)
http://greasecar.com/prodimg/ACF926F.jpg

TECHNICAL DATA
EMISSIONS TESTING

Report is given here on diesel, biodiesel and Greasecar comparison on a 1981 VW Vanagon by P. Joshua Wilson and Michal Vojtisek-Lom.

HC, CO, CO2, NO measured by dual repair-grade five-gas analyzers
PM measured by light scattering
Exhaust flow determined computationally
Monitoring system was installed in the vehicle and operated while vehicle was driven on the road
Vehicle tested on a rural highway from Superior interstate highway exit to a four-way stop sign, and back.
NOx (grams) CO (grams) PM (grams)
Diesel 19.2 17.6 1.35
Greasecar 19.2 0% 13 -26% 0.83 -39%
ME Biodiesel 22.2 +16% 16 -9% 0.98 -27%
EE Biodiesel 22 +15% 11.7 -34% 0.88 -35%
Diesel - street diesel fuel from a local pump
Greasecar - straight vegetable oil placed in Greasecar tank
ME Biodiesel - home-made methyl-ester of used vegetable oil
EE Biodiesel - professionally made (Univ. of Idaho) ethyl-ester of yellow mustard seed oil

Specifications of Restaurant waste oil

Oil tested: Non-hydrogenated canola oil settled and filtered to 10 microns.
Source: Restaurant waste oil dumpster
Parameter: Results ASTM Method
API Gravity @60F 22.0 ASTM D-287
Ash% <0.005 ASTM D-482
BTU/Gal 130,660 ASTM D-240
BTU/Lb 17,001 ASTM D-240
Carbon, % 77.9 ASTM D-5291
Flash Point, F <230 ASTM D-93
Hydrogen, % 11.4 ASTM D-5291
Nitrogen, % <0.10 ASTM D-5373
Oxygen, % 10.7 ASTM D-5373
Pounds per Gal 7.685
Specific Gravity @60F 0.9218 ASTM D-287
Sulfur, % <0.05 ASTM D-1552
Viscosity, KinematicCST @40C 33.7 ASTM D-445

Any research facilities or Universities interested in assisting research or data collection in relation to fuel, emissions, engine wear or other, please contact:
Greascar Vegetable Fuel Systems
PO Box 60508
Florence, MA 01062
413.529.0013
[email protected]
_________________
84 Westy 4spd sold

[metalwoodstone]

What sort of mods would you do to a 1.6 td?

Well for the 1.9l td you could-

-2.5" downpipe from the manifold

-modify the govner spring in the pump to get full range fueling. The govner spring limits fuel after @ 2800rpm.

-bigger injectors

-add an intercooler

-modify the waste gate for more boost?

-bigger turbo? altho the 1.6td already has the kkk26?

definatly these engines have alot of power potential, unlike the waterboxer. Of course you would want to add on specific gauges
as these mods would increase the heat and likelyhood of melting
your head



you could even put a 1.9 head on that 1.6 for a franken td

ps Andrew, thanks for all the great posts on th other site!

[?Waldo?]

Certainly any mods done to a 1.6TD can also be done to the 1.9TD and the end result will be more power than that of the 1.6TD. My vote for a 1.6TD merely lies in the fact that they are more readily available (ar at least have been prior to the gas crunch diesel freakout) and also less expensive than the 1.9TD. I also feel that they can be very easily (my opinion-what's easy for one person may not be easy for another) modified to achieve performance similar or better than that of the 2.1 WBX while consuming far less fuel and being able to run on alternative fuels.

For Better performance over the stock 1.6TD I would first replace the fiber headgasket with the metal version from the 1.9TD along with installing head studs (not a performance improvement, but safeguard). I would be highly tempted at the time to install total seal rings as well. EGT (pre-turbine), oil pressure, and oil temperature gauges would be a must as well. An intercooler and added oil cooler would go on next. As mentioned, the stock downpipe would be replaced with a 2.5" turbo back free-flowing exhaust. A VNT turbo using mechanical control would be installed. That set of modifications would result in performance similar to or better than the 2.1 WBX. A custom injection pump with a larger plunger and head would add a considerable amount of performance above and beyond.

The 1.6TD actually came with the KKK K24 rather than the K26. In the vanagon I am not really a fan of the larger K24 or T3 due to the extended spool time and the fact that in the vanagon you really feel that off the line. Thus the rational for using a VNT.

[devesvws]

First of all, I think you guys are great visionary people, but I just don't get the "make your own bio-diesel fuel" thing. In some of the other vanagon gas mpg posts, owners state they're getting up to 25 mpg which I've never seen in any of the vanagons I've owned with the exception of two '82 diesel vanagons in which 30 mpg was average. My queston is, do any of these diesel conversions achieve more than 30+ mpg? Second question, what would be the realistic cost of going the TDI route and changing the gearing in the trans?

[Witless Joe]

Either those gasser people never go over 50 mph, or they are "optimistic" about their mpg. More often 16 - 18 mpg is what people get in the real world Vanagon use (USA mpg, not Imperial).

After a certain speed on the highway, wind resistance is the prime determinant of fuel economy. The force of the wind rises as the square of its speed, so a relatively small speed increase has huge effect on the work your engine needs to do. Your old 1.6NA van was incapable of fast highway traffic, so it was easy enough to touch 30 mpg. If I slowed my 1.9TD down to 50 mph, maybe I'd get in the high 20s mpg, too.

There are a bunch of people who say 25 mpg is what they get after their 1.9TD conversions. I don't often hear much more than that.

In my full Westy, with 1.9 TD (modded pump, intercooler and T3 turbo), carrying 2 people and full gear, and an 800 lb boat trailer, I get just over 20 mpg when averaging 75 mph on the highway. 21 mpg is the best I've seen with this rig & speed. I have no interest in slowing down to 60 or under... I'd rather hold the rig at 75, and maintain the average traffic speed. Considering my speed, weight and poor aerodynamics, I think this fuel economy is just fine.

That's about 3800 rpm with my gasser 4 speed gearbox and very tall (27.5") tires. The 1.9TD has no problem running steady around 4000 rpm, but a TDI engine would be in agony to be constantly spinning that fast.

[Dogpilot]

Ok, my latest measured MPG after the 2.4L conversion on my Syncro in a south Utah, on and off the road trip, roughly 1200 miles total was 22 mpg. I do tend to cruise at 65 mph on the freeway, and I poke about on the dirt. I was loaded down in the westy, with two telescopes, that weigh in at about 400lbs and the other science gear plus camping stuff. I am a very sedate driver now, and this tend to really shorten the lives of people around me, but heck, I get great milage as a result.
_________________
Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G

[?Waldo?]

In my 1.6TD I average 27mpg round trips cruising at a fairly constant 72 MPH. My 1.6TD with it's K14 currently outperforms the 1.9WBX motor with better highway cruising, easier hill climbing, higher top speed, faster acceleration and most importantly much better fuel economy. I do have the 5-speed tranny in it, so it's not an exact apples to aplles.

A TDI would get round about 30 at the same speed, possibly slightly better. Obviously slower will get better fuel economy. A 1.9TD will manage 25ish.

I wouldn't want to hazard a guess on the cost of oa TDI conversion if someone else performed it conscientiously and new parts were used. Probably $10,000 plus the cost of the custom gearbox.

A rebuilt 1.6TD installed would be half that and the stock gas tranny could be used.

Andrew

[?Waldo?]

[Dogpilot]

Actually, from an environmental standpoint, LNG (methane) is the best fuel, burns the cleanest, and does not produce the fine particulate byproducts that all diesels, veggie or biodiesel make. This does not even go to the sulpher byproducts that most all diesel derivatives produce. Methane can be made from plant and animal waste, produced from refining coal or it just leaks from holes punched in the ground at stratigic places. It is produced on the ocean floor in crystal form from seepage. It is one of the overlooked renewable resources.

You can convert any wbx to propane LNG or dual fuel without much hassel or great expense. It is by far the most popular conversion in Europe.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/gary2a/rack/propane/propane.htm

Lets keep looking for alternatives to what they want us to do.

Cheers,
james
_________________
Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G

[?Waldo?]

Methane is a great alternative. Put those cows to work!

The "more environmental" comment was in regards to gasoline vs. bio-diesel. Burning gasoline results in added carbon dioxide to the atmosphere whereas using biodiesel replaces what was removed by the plants that were used to create the oil, a complete cycle. If doing the WVO or bio-diesel from WVO then it is also making use of a waste product that has already served a (arguably) useful task.

Andrew

[Petervw]

you could try looking up www.fastforward.ca and www.syncro.ca