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My Near "Bastard" Engine
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VW Vet
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: My Near "Bastard" Engine Reply with quote

Hello. I am new to this forum, and have been involved with aircooled VWs since 1968. But, that does not make me an expert by any means. My present project is restoring the engine I pulled out of my '56 Deluxe Sedan (not the original engine) back in 1969. It has been in my parents' garage then my barn all these years. It is 99.99% complete as pulled from the car. So far everything except the heads has measured to new standard. Head for #1&2 is useable. Head for #3&4 is cracked at both spark plug holes. All the tin is original and in excellent shape. Here is what I have learned about it from my Bentley Workshop Manual:

Engine # 3528240, built January 1960, according to the vin page on this site. This makes it a 36hp which looks like a 40hp (Bus engine). It was built during the transition from 36hp to 40hp.
The crankcase was manufactured with the #1 thrust bearing location.
The crankshaft has thrust faces at #2 and #1 main journals. This makes it a part number 113 105 101 B.

I did a search of these forums and found only vague references to the "[email protected] Engine". I will attempt to add some detail.

The following relates to the Type 2 engine only.

In May, 1959, engine # 3 400 000, VW decided the crankshaft thrust bearing needed to be moved from #1 main journal to #2 main journal. I have not discovered an OFFICIAL reason for this change. Crankshafts started breaking.
Around January, 1960, engine # 3 491 699, VW figured they made a mistake and moved the crankshaft thrust bearing back to the #1 journal. At this time, they told the dealers to convert #2 thrust engines brought in for maintenace to #1 thrust engines with varying combinations of new crankcases, crankshafts, and flywheels, depending on what was brought in.

There were many changes to the Bus engine in May 1959. Here are some of the more obvious changes:

1. Thrust bearing moved from #1 to #2 main journal (moved back to #1, Jauary 1960).
2. Cam followers no longer an integral part of the pushrods.
3. Valves enter the head at an angle. Previously they entered straight in.
4. Cylinder head chambers changed to "wedge" shape.
5. The cylinder head rocker boxes have a vent in the area of the intake port. The vent was closed in January, 1960, but the casting remained in place for a year or so afterwards. This feature was dropped in June 1961.
6. Cylinder tin, where the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, are stamped, is raised. This was previously flat. See photo, below.
7. Generator support no longer an integral part of the crankcase.
8. Fuel pump pushrod changed from horizontal to vertical.

Through all this, the hp remained at 36. The better 40hp engine was not installed in the Bus until June 1, 1960.

Feel free to chime in with corrections or additional information. I can add to this post as I learn more about this period in VW's engine history. If anyone is interested, I can post pictures of my engine with details from inside the crankcase and heads.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


First photo, ready for the bench stand.
Second photo, opened up after 38 years under the bench.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Third photo, showing unused thrust face at #2 main journal.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Fourth photo, showing thrust bearing returned to #1 main journal as of January '60. The "breaking cranks" problem of the bastard engine was eliminated.
As noted above, cylinder tin:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Moderator note:
Information from another thread, another good way to know if your Bus would have a Bastard engine (reworded a bit for clarity here):
Clara wrote:
The regular stale air 40hp started 1st June 1960, VIN 614 456.

From progressive refinements:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


They also went to push on connectors in the wiring at vin 614 456.
So a screw connection bus would have been 36hp or bastard 40 (or 25 if much earlier), and push on connection bus is stale air 40 (or later).


Last edited by VW Vet on Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:11 am; edited 10 times in total
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crofty
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the weak link in the bastard engines was the crank as well.
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Russ Wolfe
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I may have a set of heads for a "bastard 40hp" I acquired about 100 heads in a deal, and think I saw a set in there. They have a wide boss at the top of the valve cover. A standard valve cover won't work without modifying it. Haven't really looked at them yet.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bastard heads require a bastard valve cover with a cutout on the top for the boss.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a spare set of the above covers I will be listing in the next few days.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

color=firebrick]Cool. My bus was made October 1959, so looks like I had a bastard engine originally. Interesting information.[/color]
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I added some photos to the first post in this thread.
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bastardbus
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a `60 bastardbus...hence my samba moniker. I have rebuilt and have several bastard engines and parts here on hand. You have done right with some of the differences but the bastard is really a one off engine though most every single part on the bastard engine is bastard only!

-Heads are completely one of a kind
-piston and cylinders are one of a kind
-case, cam, tins, carb, fuel puump etc etc...

I have a seen bastard engines with everything from new crankcase with the old bastard serial number stamped in it to using the old bastard case with one off updated bearings to change the thrust position.

Your engine is the same scenario I have found most often when I came across a bastard engine. It is usually in a bug with the updated bearings but otherwise all bastard. The history of the engine is usually a rebuilt replacement bought from a dealership. I have seen this several times and rarely find a bastard in a bus believe it or not!

In my `60 westy I have the original bastard engine that had low miles and was untouched, never rebuilt or converted. For preservtions sake I wound up completely rebuilding it including the NOS bastard only heads and bastard only piston and cylinders. As far as mains go I did convert the thrust to the #1 position with NOS bearings I found over the years as well as the other items flywheel etc.

Very cool and interesting engines!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too have a very nice low mile 1960 L345 Light Grey Kombi that was a Bastard Bus. It has what appears to be 34,500 original miles. It was parked on jackstands in a garage in the neighborhood I grew up in back in February of 1972. It actually pulled a head stud in a way that the case was junk back in 1967. As far as I've heard these Bastard engines had such a high failure rate with catastrophic damage at extremely low miles that the dealership recalled them and replaced them with the newer design 1200cc 40hp engines. The most common reasons I've heard were typically from broken crankshafts and pulled head studs.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't bastards also have a huge main seal and bearing at the flywheel, too?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:51 am    Post subject: Bastard still running Reply with quote

This is in a 1960 SO-23 and it is still running with 90K miles on it. Something short of a miracle.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crofty wrote:
I have a spare set of the above covers I will be listing in the next few days.


I also think they have a unique gen stand
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Bastard still running Reply with quote

transportertalkman wrote:
This is in a 1960 SO-23 and it is still running with 90K miles on it. Something short of a miracle.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

shouldn't a bastard engine case have different webbing on the case under the distributor? can I just not see it from that angle or has that case been replaced with a standard 40hp longblock and dressed up with bastard tin? (that was common in the day).
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wil try to get a different angle to show the unique webbing and location of the oil pressure switch.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: Bastard still running Reply with quote

transportertalkman wrote:
This is in a 1960 SO-23 and it is still running with 90K miles on it. Something short of a miracle.



Not a miracle, that really means nothing.

Most all the bastard engines were recalled within the first year or so after production and and as I mentioned lots of them were updated with newer cases and restamped with the original serial numbers or the original bastard case was updated with modified bearings which solved the problems and the motors lived happily there after. (if you check the early Bentley Manuals they cover this bearing update for the bastard engine)

So in theory unless you pop the flywheel or crack the case you can not tell if it has the original bastard bearing set up or not. But at 90,000 miles including you have several non bastard parts visable on that engine already...it has more then likely been updated years ago. Really does not make much of a difference either way...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

transportertalkman wrote:
I wil try to get a different angle to show the unique webbing and location of the oil pressure switch.

Thank you, I would be interested in having that posted in the Gallery for reference.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont mean to sound like an idiot or anything, what is a Bastard?
maybe an add to the Dictionary might be good too.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't it also have a manual choke and the fuel pump looks wrong.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

67_13Deluxe wrote:
I dont mean to sound like an idiot or anything, what is a Bastard?
maybe an add to the Dictionary might be good too.

I will see if I can add it but the first post in this thread appear to have the greatest amount of information posted thus far.
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Last edited by EverettB on Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crofty wrote:
Wouldn't it also have a manual choke and the fuel pump looks wrong.


Yuppers...like I mentioned previously I see lotsa non bastard parts on that engine. In fact transportertalk should check his VIN numbers as his bus may be after bastard engine production and he may have a regular 40hp.

I had a very early `61 (produced in Sept `60) that had a stock 40hp...it did have the bastard cylinder tins and couple other items carried over so those items may be deceptive too.
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