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WBX man
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:08 am    Post subject: Supercharger DIY kit? Reply with quote

Hi... I posted this on the Shoptalkforums, nobody seems to be intrested Rolling Eyes

HelloÖ

I'm going design and construct a supercharger/compressor kit for Wasserboxers as a school project.

In this context, I would like some opinions on the subject from ďprosĒ generally, and what demands such a project should include if it was sold as a DIY (Do It Yourself) kit!?

It is my plan that the kit should include: Mount, pulley, Multi v-belt, hoses and what you else need to fit the supercharger in the engine bay.
First the plan is to adapt the mount to use the most common superchargers, as the Mercedes ones named M45 and M62. (and others alike)

Iíll be happy if you answered these questions and left your comment !

- Would you have any interest selling/ buying this kit ?
- Do you think this kit would have any interest for the WBX owners ?
- Do you have the skills and courage to start such a project ?
- Would it be a better idea to include everything like: assembly guide, Megasquirt with all
its sensors etc. ?
- How much do you think the price should/ could be on DIY kit ?
- What features and demands are in your opinion the most important ?

Best regards
Rasmus
Denmark

Follow the link:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=103539&sid=fdb116a46944c45b18ddad1d7084b3f5

Leave a comment here if you like !?
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rs4-380
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you are going to do a kit, you need to supply management (whether it is pre configured megasquirt setup or custom code for the existing ecu) or it's not really a kit.

Also, one of the biggest things that would worry me is that wasserboxers already are known for relatively weak/problematic headgaskets. What's going to happen when you add boost?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try it for the I4 CIS setup. No ECU to deal with. If you could make it work I would install it.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rs4-380 wrote:
if you are going to do a kit, you need to supply management (whether it is pre configured megasquirt setup or custom code for the existing ecu) or it's not really a kit.


Yes, but I wanted to split it up in 3 kits.

Stage 1: For std. management system (very low boost) Aprox. 130 Hp

Stage 2: For Megasquirt managementsystem (or equal) Aprox. 140-150 Hp.

Stage 3: For Megasquirtnít Spark management system with distributor free ignition, Intercooler etc. Aprox. 160-170 Hp

rs4-380 wrote:

Also, one of the biggest things that would worry me is that wasserboxers already are known for relatively weak/problematic headgaskets. What's going to happen when you add boost?


Itís only the outer rubber headgasket thereís a problem, If you use the proper coolant, itís no big issue.
The inner steel headgasket is pretty strong and I donít think it will cause any trouble at all !
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill W wrote:
Try it for the I4 CIS setup.

What is I4 CIS ?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trust me, running F/I on CIS is going to yield more headaches than benefit.

Low boost, may be "only" 130 hp, but that is close to a 50% power increase. I seriously doubt you will be able to run that safely on stock engine management.

Props to you if you want to do it, but it's going to be a ton of work to be dependable.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I4 CIS is the inline 4-cyl with Bosch K-jetronic. Bill hates the wbx.

Rasmus is coming here from over on STF, where I read many of his posts. Welcome! If you spend a little time there, you'll read many accounts of folks in the "Eurozone" running supercharging on mostly unmodified wbx blocks, for road and racing, and I've yet to see reports of compression sealing ring failures. Some of these rigs are seeing pretty high miles. I was skeptical as well about the ability of the wbx to handle high output, but a lot of people seem to be having a good time with it. The bottom end is not a problem, that's for sure. Rods would be the critical point of weakness, in my mind, other than the usual problems of blowing out piston crowns.

I like his idea, personally. If I hadn't just built up my wbx for higher compression Id be much more tempted to explore the possibilities of supercharging. As it is, with 9:1 CR I could afford a few pounds occasionally. It's just with the big weight of a Vanagon and the mountain terrain I live in, coupled to my lead foot, occasionally would turn into all the time.

Limitations? First off, I've read that the stock injectors are only able to flow enough for about 130hp, so they would have to be upgraded for the Phase II idea. I think up to that output you could get away with an unmodified Digifant. The increased manifold pressure would backfeed the stock fuel pressure regulator and increase fuel rail pressure under boost, albeit imprecisely. Some timing modifications would be in order, though, which are hard to accomplish with Digifant without just retarding across the board, not the best solution.

Above that level of power you would definitely need a fully programmable FI/ignition system.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't hate the wasser, I just don't trust them.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rs4-380 wrote:
trust me, running F/I on CIS is going to yield more headaches than benefit.

Low boost, may be "only" 130 hp, but that is close to a 50% power increase. I seriously doubt you will be able to run that safely on stock engine management.

Props to you if you want to do it, but it's going to be a ton of work to be dependable.


I don't know if it's possible to do it with the stock systemÖ and I really donít care, because I already installed MS in my car.
It was an opportunity for others to get extra power and an argument in my schoolproject for versatility.

I donít think thereís ever going to be manufactured more than a couple of units of this kit, but I think itís a fun way to mix interests and schoolwork thatís why I do it!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:


tencentlife wrote:
I4 CIS is the inline 4-cyl with Bosch K-jetronic. Bill hates the wbx.

Ofcause.. Wink Thanks ! (by the way K-jettronic sucks ! Razz )

tencentlife wrote:

Rasmus is coming here from over on STF, where I read many of his posts. Welcome!

Thanks again ! Very Happy

tencentlife wrote:
I've yet to see reports of compression sealing ring failures.

Same to me!

tencentlife wrote:
Rods would be the critical point of weakness, in my mind, other than the usual problems of blowing out piston crowns.


Yes I know! And I will ofcause rebuild my engine with non-strech bolts, and use stock pistons and not any 2. brand like cofap or alike Wink

tencentlife wrote:
I like his idea, personally. If I hadn't just built up my wbx for higher compression Id be much more tempted to explore the possibilities of supercharging. As it is, with 9:1 CR I could afford a few pounds occasionally.


Is your CR 9:1 now ? what kind of octane are you running ?

tencentlife wrote:

Limitations? First off, I've read that the stock injectors are only able to flow enough for about 130hp, so they would have to be upgraded for the Phase II idea.


Yes, that was my point ! I've also heard about the 130 hp limit

tencentlife wrote:
I think up to that output you could get away with an unmodified Digifant.

Me too. That was my idea !

tencentlife wrote:
Some timing modifications would be in order, though, which are hard to accomplish with Digifant without just retarding across the board, not the best solution.


Yes that's maybe the hardest part to overcome.. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Supercharger-VW-Car...dZViewItem

Here is a DIY Supercharger kit.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow that is super natural! I think that is a squirl fan hooked up to the intake? Rolling Eyes I think I would install the "Tornado" first.

I am allways looking for extra power out of my WBX, however especialy as of late reliability is of utmost importance. I had a Nissan Frontier with the 3.3L Supercharged V6 from the factory, only put out about 5lbs of boost. It was just enough to hear it whine and use up a little more fuel, the torque/HP gain was very modest.

At this point in the game I am more interested in getting the 5cyl. Audi deisel engine, I know my Vanagon is no performance machine, I just want to get 35-40 mpg, that would get me excited. Wink

Cudos to you for the interest, I would love to see a finished product. Very Happy
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WBX man
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tomswesty wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Supercharger-VW-Car...dZViewItem

Here is a DIY Supercharger kit.


Come on.... GET REAL !
I didn't write hairdryer Wink

No, this is a supercharger Twisted Evil

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WBX man wrote:
tencentlife wrote:
Some timing modifications would be in order, though, which are hard to accomplish with Digifant without just retarding across the board, not the best solution.


Yes that's maybe the hardest part to overcome.. Rolling Eyes


I've heard that some uses Saab 900 distributor for VW boxer turbo applications.
Maybe that would work ?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rasmus, there's details about my engine here at STF (halfway down the page):

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=100129&sid=b318c1ae6d01d8c1a010b78c9231aaf3

It is a calculated 8.96:1 CR. I live at 6400' ( 1950m) altitude and use US 86 octane gas (probably around 89 where you live).

Yeah, I was thinking you could replace the stock diz with a unit that has the Hall generator installed, just to give the Digifant ECU the rpm reference signal it needs, and a vacuum retard function. Since you'd want to retard under boost, you'd need a unit that had the ability to retard by applying pressure on one side of the diaphragm, rather than suction. A diz with a two-sided diaphragm pod would work. Lots of possible choices, I would think.

Funny thing about the squirrel fan thang. If it can move 500cfm in free air, it could actually raise manifold pressure above what would be normal, which is something below atmosphere wherever you happen to be. Here's the basic math:

2.1 liter @ 5000rpm 4-cycle = 2.1 x 2500= 5250 lpm
5250 lpm x .0353 = 185.325 cfm

So on paper, it could move 500/185= 2.7 times the volume of air that the engine moves (on paper) at 5000rpm. The engine of course moves quite a bit less in static volume due to breathing restrictions, and so does the little fan. But on paper, it's interesting and would no doubt elevate manifold pressure (or lower vacuum, if you will). The problem as I see it is that a centrifugal fan is a very inefficient air mover, and would probably never be able to raise manifold pressure above atmosphere, which is the threshhold you need to exceed by several pounds to start to really get hp gains in a supercharged engine. So it would probably increase power slightly, but I could also probably get as much if I fed $119 worth of peanuts to a bunch of squirrels and put them in a spinning cage belted to the crankshaft.

However, I do like the idea of an electric supercharger, I mean a real positive-displacement pump or an efficient scroll compressor. The battery would be a good place to get instant surge power for no boost-lag. But you're talking real pump hp, a pretty heavy motor, and it wouldn't be at all sustainable without a much bigger alternator. At 70A alternator output you're just exceeding 1 hp electrically. I'd think it would take 8 or 10 at least to do any serious air stuffing.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Rasmus, there's details about my engine here at STF (halfway down the page):

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=100129&sid=b318c1ae6d01d8c1a010b78c9231aaf3

It is a calculated 8.96:1 CR. I live at 6400' ( 1950m) altitude and use US 86 octane gas (probably around 89 where you live).


Thatís a super nice engine !
Do you have any pictures of the oilpipe mod. ?
Itís only possible to get 92, 95 and 98 octane in Europe. I run on 95 octane(donít know if they are comparable!?)

You write on STF ďFull-flange cam bearingsĒ thatís only on the bearing nearest the camgear right !?

This is how I think my setup will end up:
OEM 1.9 69mm crank
OEM 94mm 1.9 Pistons (CR 8.6:1) and new liners
Remachined rod set with 1.9 type bolts.
CB Eagle 2236 cam (280 degrees) & bolt-on gear
T1 lifter bushing conversion
Solid T1 lifters
30 mm. oil pump
Scat bolt on rocker shafts with 1.25 rockers and rhinofeet
Eaton supercharger from Mercedes SLK 230 with electric clutch
Megasquirt EFI with distributor free ignition control
Air to water intercooler
+ some other stuff

tencentlife wrote:

Yeah, I was thinking you could replace the stock diz with a unit that has the Hall generator installed, just to give the Digifant ECU the rpm reference signal it needs, and a vacuum retard function. Since you'd want to retard under boost, you'd need a unit that had the ability to retard by applying pressure on one side of the diaphragm, rather than suction. A diz with a two-sided diaphragm pod would work. Lots of possible choices, I would think.


Sure !

tencentlife wrote:

Funny thing about the squirrel fan thang. If it can move 500cfm in free air, it could actually raise manifold pressure above what would be normal, which is something below atmosphere wherever you happen to be. Here's the basic math:

2.1 liter @ 5000rpm 4-cycle = 2.1 x 2500= 5250 lpm
5250 lpm x .0353 = 185.325 cfm

So on paper, it could move 500/185= 2.7 times the volume of air that the engine moves (on paper) at 5000rpm. The engine of course moves quite a bit less in static volume due to breathing restrictions, and so does the little fan. But on paper, it's interesting and would no doubt elevate manifold pressure (or lower vacuum, if you will). The problem as I see it is that a centrifugal fan is a very inefficient air mover, and would probably never be able to raise manifold pressure above atmosphere, which is the threshhold you need to exceed by several pounds to start to really get hp gains in a supercharged engine. So it would probably increase power slightly, but I could also probably get as much if I fed $119 worth of peanuts to a bunch of squirrels and put them in a spinning cage belted to the crankshaft.
However, I do like the idea of an electric supercharger, I mean a real positive-displacement pump or an efficient scroll compressor. The battery would be a good place to get instant surge power for no boost-lag. But you're talking real pump hp, a pretty heavy motor, and it wouldn't be at all sustainable without a much bigger alternator. At 70A alternator output you're just exceeding 1 hp electrically. I'd think it would take 8 or 10 at least to do any serious air stuffing.


In theory I think you are right, but you REALLY need a powerful electric engine to generate any kind of pressure I donít think you would feel the difference!
For example my Eaton will ďstealĒ about 35 Hp @ 14000 rpm (with a 2:1 ratio it will mean 7000 rpm @ the crank) and will probably generate about 0.7-1.2 bars (10-17 psi) pressure in a 2 l engine.

Take a look at this discussion:
http://www.mustangforums.com/archive/thread27433-1.html

tencentlife wrote:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rasmus, here's a follow-up to the engine rebuild post you should also see:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=102662&sid=0eeda2501fafdd5548d847c7ba91cc8e

I really think you should plan on adding remote oil cooling if you're going to do a high-output wbx. Hell, I'd put it on every one of them, they all need to control oil temp to control oil pressure. My 2.2 now always has OP over 45 psi at highway speeds (2500rpm+), idles at 20psi, and temp stays under 220deg.F , even on the hottest days, AC full blast, and climbing the nastiest air-cooled-killing hills around, even the one that did in my original wbx (due to low OP, it chucked a rod). On that same long grade, which the stock 2.1 could only top at 50 mph, just needing to shift down to 3rd, this 2.2 goes over the top at 65, humming happily. This is the way these cars should drive.

I had run a 30mm pump in this engine before I rebuilt it, and it did very little to increase pressure, and nothing at all once it got hot. I got more benefit by shimming up the pressure relief valve spring 1.5mm than the HD pump gave. The big pump mainly causes too much pressure when the oil is cold, like 90psi. Controlling temp remotely addresses the real problem.

Full-flange cam bearings: yes, that's just the camgear bearing. Stock has only a half-flange for thrust control. A lot of the kits nowadays have the full-flange, but make sure that's what you're getting.

Sorry, my old digital camera was broken while I did the rebuild. I really wanted some pictures of the oil pickup tube mod, but I wanted to get the van back on the road (plus I'd blown all my money on parts, so a new camera had to wait).

I think the octanes you're getting over there are roughly equivalent to our octanes here, maybe a point higher there. The US uses a different, and I have to say better, methodology to arrive at the pump rating, which integrates a real engine combustion test with the laboratory analysis.

You're gonna have a high max hp point with that cam duration. Hope you're planning a pretty big exhaust system to make it work up at the high end.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Rasmus, here's a follow-up to the engine rebuild post you should also see:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=102662&sid=0eeda2501fafdd5548d847c7ba91cc8e

I really think you should plan on adding remote oil cooling if you're going to do a high-output wbx. Hell, I'd put it on every one of them, they all need to control oil temp to control oil pressure. My 2.2 now always has OP over 45 psi at highway speeds (2500rpm+), idles at 20psi, and temp stays under 220deg.F , even on the hottest days, AC full blast, and climbing the nastiest air-cooled-killing hills around, even the one that did in my original wbx (due to low OP, it chucked a rod). On that same long grade, which the stock 2.1 could only top at 50 mph, just needing to shift down to 3rd, this 2.2 goes over the top at 65, humming happily. This is the way these cars should drive.

I had run a 30mm pump in this engine before I rebuilt it, and it did very little to increase pressure, and nothing at all once it got hot. I got more benefit by shimming up the pressure relief valve spring 1.5mm than the HD pump gave. The big pump mainly causes too much pressure when the oil is cold, like 90psi. Controlling temp remotely addresses the real problem.


I am planning to add a remote oilcooler just forgot to write about it before.
With the tempís we have here in Denmark it isnít a problem to run with out an oilcooler on a normal WBX, but with the plans I have, Iím sure it would be a great idea. Rolling Eyes

Normally I run with 0-40 or 5-50 full synt. Oil and have never had any problems with oilpressure!

tencentlife wrote:

Full-flange cam bearings: yes, that's just the camgear bearing. Stock has only a half-flange for thrust control. A lot of the kits nowadays have the full-flange, but make sure that's what you're getting.


Iíve never seen cambearings for WBX without the flange, but I guess Itís far more easy to get WBX spareparts in Europe !? As for the mainsÖ Is there a special risen to use a mix of T4 and T1ís ? Why not just buy a set for WBXís ?

tencentlife wrote:

Sorry, my old digital camera was broken while I did the rebuild. I really wanted some pictures of the oil pickup tube mod


Tuff luck ! I donít really get it .. could you please draw something.. maybe at some of the pictures in the workshop manual ? Idea



tencentlife wrote:

I think the octanes you're getting over there are roughly equivalent to our octanes here, maybe a point higher there. The US uses a different, and I have to say better, methodology to arrive at the pump rating, which integrates a real engine combustion test with the laboratory analysis.


Yes probably.. ! I have a stock DJ engine with CR 10.5:1 and I have to retard the ignition to 5 degrees BTDC to drive with 95 octane

tencentlife wrote:

You're gonna have a high max hp point with that cam duration. Hope you're planning a pretty big exhaust system to make it work up at the high end.


I donít wish the high max HP, I hope the supercharger will compensate for that, and give me more low-end power.
Iíve had a Engel W100 (276 degrees) in a stock WBX it really had nice power though the whole rpm area, more power at the low-end than the stock cam.

The Engle 2236 has one of the shortest duration of the ďturbo applicationsĒ cams.
CB writes it will give a solid midrange and top end performance (and hopefully low-end with the supercharger Wink )

Another thing with the cam is I got it cheap Embarassed
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, camwise, go with what other folks have used if they know it works. I'm just speculating based on the additional duration compared to stock and to the one I'm using now. Where you bring in boost will be a big factor.

The mixed bearings: all the wbx's can use a T1 bearing set for all but the crank thrust bearing. But the wbx cranks have a 60mm #1 brng journal. The problem was, my case had to be align-bored to 1.00mm (2 steps) oversize. Full wbx brng. sets are easily available for undersize cranks (mine was still standard, though), but are completely unavailable for oversize cases. That's no problem for #2-4, since any T1 set works, but on the thrust brng you're stuck. Bob Donalds ( http://www.bostonengine.com/home.html ) had already encountered this problem and had on hand a bunch of thrust bearings he had had custom made in case oversizes and oversize thrust shoulders.

I'll see what I can do about illustrating the oil pickup tube mod.
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istewart
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slightly off-topic, but what compelled you to install the Renault UN1 gearbox? I know it's popular in kitcars in Europe, and some people have put very hefty amounts of power through it after beefing up 5th gear.
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