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dexter55
Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Jerez, Spain
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 Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:18 am Post subject: Type1 engine on Type 4 engine bus |
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Hi all !!! My bus has a type4 engine, but when i buy it, it has a type1 engine mounted. My problem is that the engine tin is different, to fit the type4 engine bay. I have the front tin ( a big one with a curve in the left ) and the rear one, but it was impossible to me to find two little tin parts that connects this front big tin with the rear one. They must be fitted between this two tin parts, to completly cover the engine "hole" and close the whole engine bay.
Where can i find them, or at least, a photo to try to copy them ??
Sorry about my poor english, and thanks in advance for the answers. |
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NASkeet
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Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3249
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Type1 engine on Type 4 engine bus |
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| dexter55 wrote: |
Hi all !!! My bus has a type4 engine, but when i buy it, it has a type1 engine mounted. My problem is that the engine tin is different, to fit the type4 engine bay. I have the front tin ( a big one with a curve in the left ) and the rear one, but it was impossible to me to find two little tin parts that connects this front big tin with the rear one. They must be fitted between this two tin parts, to completly cover the engine "hole" and close the whole engine bay.
Where can i find them, or at least, a photo to try to copy them ??
Sorry about my poor english, and thanks in advance for the answers. |
The VW Type 4 engine coverplates, can be obtained from VW car dismantlers in Great Britain and Europe, or if not readily available, then there seem to be many in the USA.
Try looking at this page, on Richard Atwell's website, which is an excerpt from the official 1968~79 VW Type 2 Replacement Parts Catalogue & Microfiche:
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Microfiche/t201100.gif
Look also, in a 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2 workshop manual. It would be difficult to copy them, just by looking at the pictures!
What model-year, is your 1968~79 VW Type 2? If it is of 1972~79 model-year, then the conversion is easy!
What is the source of your VW Type 4 engine; a 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2, or a 1980~83 VW Type 2, or a VW 411/412 or VW-Porsche 914?
Does your VW Type 4 engine, have two carburettors or electronic fuel injection?
I have converted my British specification, 1973 VW 1600 Type 2, which originally had a VW Type 1 style engine, to a VW Type 4 style engine.
One needs to use ONLY the VW Type 4 style engine coverplates. NONE of the VW Type 1 style engine coverplates can be used.
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet |
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surfthebus13
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Joined: October 13, 2004
Posts: 205
Location: oside ca
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gator
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2004
Posts: 477
Location: Columbia, South Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| right on. i've been interested in doing just the opposite, putting an upright 1600 into my '77 bus (with early 3 rib tranny, using 210mm flywheel). i'm down with fabbing up some sheet metal to surround the engine and seal in the compartment, but what do i do for a flywheel/clutch/rear mount? |
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dexter55
Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Jerez, Spain
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:57 am Post subject: |
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First, thanks to all for the answers.
I have seen the part what i need in the microfiche. I need just the part number 9, actually i only have the part number 25.
My bus is a 1973 westy model. From the m-plate of my bus, it supossed to be a 1.6 engine with automatic transmision, i have talk with Vincent Moleenar ( author of the m-codes book ) and he was surprised with the m-plate of my bus. It´s seems to be an European Delivery Program bus, it was a commercial campaign made for US customers who wants to spend their holidays in Eurpoe inside a VW, and after that they can get the bus to USA, or leave it in Europe, so my bus was originally US spec. Actually it has a manual trans, and i think she never has an automatic one installed.
When i bought it, she has a type1 engine with most of engine tin missed.
I think she never has a type4 engine, ( there´s no 1.6 type 4 engine ) but the engine bay is a type4 shape.
Thanks for the link, its very useful for me !!!
Regards,
Fede |
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VWGirl
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Joined: June 03, 2003
Posts: 2462
Location: Powder Springs, GA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: |
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i have a friend with a bus that should have a type 4 engine in it, but instead has a type 1 (actually a few friends with these)... and for engine tin he uses NOTHING... not saying that I recommend it... but he has many thousands of miles on the engine this way, both long distance and around town. I kinda freaked out the first time i saw it as we were 500+ miles from home... but hey, whatever works!
I also have another friend who just cut some sheet metal to fill in the space... it doesnt have to be fancy you know?
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2002
Posts: 1663
Location: Palominas AZ
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:26 am Post subject: |
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VW Girl ---
I actualy know a mechanic in NM who does this. He installs a T1 into the later busses --- he HATES the TIV (shrug). His premise is that "The sandrails run all day over the dunes in Yuma without the lower tin - or engine compartment sealing - so why not do the same in a bus?"
He removes the lower tin on the engine, and actualy CUTS OUT a lot of the engine bay lower metal....almost all the way to the decklid. When you open it up - there's a BIG hole there.
He says that as long as he's moving - the air will circulate enough as there is tons of space around the engine. Sitting still in traffic is a problem - and he will see his temps rise a little.
*shrug* --- *I* wouldnt do it this way - but he swears by it...
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1963 Beetle
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3249
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: Type 4 instead of Type 1 engine, in 1972~79 VW Type 2 |
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| dexter55 wrote: |
First, thanks to all for the answers.
I have seen the part what i need in the microfiche. I need just the part number 9, actually i only have the part number 25.
My bus is a 1973 westy model. From the m-plate of my bus, it supossed to be a 1.6 engine with automatic transmision, i have talk with Vincent Moleenar ( author of the m-codes book ) and he was surprised with the m-plate of my bus. It´s seems to be an European Delivery Program bus, it was a commercial campaign made for US customers who wants to spend their holidays in Eurpoe inside a VW, and after that they can get the bus to USA, or leave it in Europe, so my bus was originally US spec. Actually it has a manual trans, and i think she never has an automatic one installed.
When i bought it, she has a type1 engine with most of engine tin missed.
I think she never has a type4 engine, ( there´s no 1.6 type 4 engine ) but the engine bay is a type4 shape.
Thanks for the link, its very useful for me !!!
Regards,
Fede |
The 1972~79 VW Type 2 automatic transmission, was ONLY available with the 1700, 1800 or 2000 VW Type 4 style engine. The VW 1600 Type 2 engine, has insufficient torque, to cope with only three ratios of automatic transmission.
The 1972~79 VW Type 2 engine bay, was designed to accommodate the 1972~79 VW 1600 Type 2 engine (i.e. VW Type 1 style) and 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2 (i.e. VW Type 4 style), using different sets of coverplates, for the two different engines.
Some of the coverplates for the 1968~71 VW 1600 Type 2 engine, are different from the coverplates for the 1972~79 VW 1600 Type 2 engine, because the shape of the engine bay was changed, so that the VW Type 4 style could be fitted as an alternative.
The coverplate numbered 9, is for the VW 1600 Type 2 engine (i.e. VW Type 1 style). The coverplates that you need to use, are numbered 10 (i.e. not 9), 13, 15, 20, plus exhaust heat-shield numbered 16 and warm-air ducts & fittings, numbered 42, 43 & 45, which provide pre-heated air, to the twin-carburettors' air filter housing.
You also need to use, the alternator coverplate (numbered 44), plastic alternator to alternator-coverplate seal (not shown!) and oil-dipstick-tube grommet (numbered 45), which are shown on page 009-00, of the official 1968~79 VW Type 2 Replacement Parts Catalogue & Microfiche, as follows.
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Microfiche/t200900.gif
If you are interested, I think I have some spare VW Type 4 engine style coverplates (including number 10), of those I have mentioned, but it might be quite expensive to send them from Great Britain to Spain!
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3249
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: Type 4 into Type 1, VW Type 2 engine transplant |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
VW Girl ---
I actualy know a mechanic in NM who does this. He installs a T1 into the later busses --- he HATES the TIV (shrug). His premise is that "The sandrails run all day over the dunes in Yuma without the lower tin - or engine compartment sealing - so why not do the same in a bus?"
He removes the lower tin on the engine, and actualy CUTS OUT a lot of the engine bay lower metal....almost all the way to the decklid. When you open it up - there's a BIG hole there.
He says that as long as he's moving - the air will circulate enough as there is tons of space around the engine. Sitting still in traffic is a problem - and he will see his temps rise a little.
*shrug* --- *I* wouldnt do it this way - but he swears by it... |
From what I have seen of sand rails, they do not have an engine compartment at all, but are simply a region surrounded by an open space-frame chassis.
Apart from the relatively small, high-position air intakes, the engine compartment of the 1968~79 VW Type 2s, is effectively sealed from the front, rear and both sides, so leaving the lower periphery unsealed, is just begging for the ultra hot cooling-system exhaust air to be recirculated through the cooling system, which would progressively get hotter and hotter, with each cycle. One needs to ensure, that only relatively cool ambient air, is able to gain entry into the engine compartment.
The sand rail engines in New Mexico, do not have the weight (1·3~2·3 tonnes) and aerodynamic drag, of the 1968~79 VW Type 2, with which to contend.
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4759
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 into Type 1, VW Type 2 engine transplant |
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| NASkeet wrote: |
| [email protected] wrote: |
VW Girl ---
I actualy know a mechanic in NM who does this. He installs a T1 into the later busses --- he HATES the TIV (shrug). His premise is that "The sandrails run all day over the dunes in Yuma without the lower tin - or engine compartment sealing - so why not do the same in a bus?"
He removes the lower tin on the engine, and actualy CUTS OUT a lot of the engine bay lower metal....almost all the way to the decklid. When you open it up - there's a BIG hole there.
He says that as long as he's moving - the air will circulate enough as there is tons of space around the engine. Sitting still in traffic is a problem - and he will see his temps rise a little.
*shrug* --- *I* wouldnt do it this way - but he swears by it... |
From what I have seen of sand rails, they do not have an engine compartment at all, but are simply a region surrounded by an open space-frame chassis.
Apart from the relatively small, high-position air intakes, the engine compartment of the 1968~79 VW Type 2s, is effectively sealed from the front, rear and both sides, so leaving the lower periphery unsealed, is just begging for the ultra hot cooling-system exhaust air to be recirculated through the cooling system, which would progressively get hotter and hotter, with each cycle. One needs to ensure, that only relatively cool ambient air, is able to gain entry into the engine compartment.
The sand rail engines in New Mexico, do not have the weight (1·3~2·3 tonnes) and aerodynamic drag, of the 1968~79 VW Type 2, with which to contend.
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet |
I agree 
comparing a sandrail to a bus is crazy and leaving the tin off so all the heated cooling air is sucked back into the motor is nuts..... 
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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nodrenim
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Joined: October 06, 2006
Posts: 843
Location: Dobson, North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I used to have a 72 type 2 with a 1600 type 1 engine that I installed myself. I left the type1 engine tin in place and after I got the engine installed, I simply made some templates from light weight cardboard. Then I pop-rivited the pieces to the type 1 tin and put the rubber seal in place. Drove it that way for four years, over 100,000 miles no problems, except for one upper end overhaul due to mileage. Good luck! |
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gator
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Joined: August 12, 2004
Posts: 477
Location: Columbia, South Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| what was required to mount the engine to the trans, if the '72 uses a 210 mm flywheel with the 5 bolts instead of the 200mm with the gland nut? i mean, the flywheels are not exactly interchangeable... |
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dexter55
Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Jerez, Spain
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
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The 1972~79 VW Type 2 automatic transmission, was ONLY available with the 1700, 1800 or 2000 VW Type 4 style engine. The VW 1600 Type 2 engine, has insufficient torque, to cope with only three ratios of automatic transmission.
The 1972~79 VW Type 2 engine bay, was designed to accommodate the 1972~79 VW 1600 Type 2 engine (i.e. VW Type 1 style) and 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2 (i.e. VW Type 4 style), using different sets of coverplates, for the two different engines.
Some of the coverplates for the 1968~71 VW 1600 Type 2 engine, are different from the coverplates for the 1972~79 VW 1600 Type 2 engine, because the shape of the engine bay was changed, so that the VW Type 4 style could be fitted as an alternative.
The coverplate numbered 9, is for the VW 1600 Type 2 engine (i.e. VW Type 1 style). The coverplates that you need to use, are numbered 10 (i.e. not 9), 13, 15, 20, plus exhaust heat-shield numbered 16 and warm-air ducts & fittings, numbered 42, 43 & 45, which provide pre-heated air, to the twin-carburettors' air filter housing.
You also need to use, the alternator coverplate (numbered 44), plastic alternator to alternator-coverplate seal (not shown!) and oil-dipstick-tube grommet (numbered 45), which are shown on page 009-00, of the official 1968~79 VW Type 2 Replacement Parts Catalogue & Microfiche, as follows.
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Microfiche/t200900.gif
If you are interested, I think I have some spare VW Type 4 engine style coverplates (including number 10), of those I have mentioned, but it might be quite expensive to send them from Great Britain to Spain!
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet |
Hi Nigel !!! Thanks for your answer. I actually have a type 1 engine, the coverplate i need is the one numbered 9, the numbered 10 is for type4 engines, is it?
If you have a number 9, i´m really interested on it !!!
Thanks again,
Fede. |
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Blaubus
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2003
Posts: 5153
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I actualy know a mechanic in NM who does this. He installs a T1 into the later busses --- he HATES the TIV (shrug). His premise is that "The sandrails run all day over the dunes in Yuma without the lower tin - or engine compartment sealing - so why not do the same in a bus?"
He removes the lower tin on the engine, and actualy CUTS OUT a lot of the engine bay lower metal....almost all the way to the decklid. When you open it up - there's a BIG hole there.
He says that as long as he's moving - the air will circulate enough as there is tons of space around the engine. Sitting still in traffic is a problem - and he will see his temps rise a little.
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oh crap... everyone is a junior engineer! with a type 1 engine the lack of body metal and the resulting airflow AROUND the engine from front to back keeps the hot air from recirculating back to the fan. obviously this doesnt apply to any regular car.
if the author of this topic cant find any tin in europe he should get the fiberglas equivalent shrouding from www.creativecarcraft.com |
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nemobuscaptain
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 3875
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3249
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: Type 1 & type 4 engines, in 1968~79 VW 1600 type 2 |
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| dexter55 wrote: |
| Quote: |
The 1972~79 VW Type 2 automatic transmission, was ONLY available with the 1700, 1800 or 2000 VW Type 4 style engine. The VW 1600 Type 2 engine, has insufficient torque, to cope with only three ratios of automatic transmission.
The 1972~79 VW Type 2 engine bay, was designed to accommodate the 1972~79 VW 1600 Type 2 engine (i.e. VW Type 1 style) and 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2 (i.e. VW Type 4 style), using different sets of coverplates, for the two different engines.
Some of the coverplates for the 1968~71 VW 1600 Type 2 engine, are different from the coverplates for the 1972~79 VW 1600 Type 2 engine, because the shape of the engine bay was changed, so that the VW Type 4 style could be fitted as an alternative.
The coverplate numbered 9, is for the VW 1600 Type 2 engine (i.e. VW Type 1 style). The coverplates that you need to use, are numbered 10 (i.e. not 9), 13, 15, 20, plus exhaust heat-shield numbered 16 and warm-air ducts & fittings, numbered 42, 43 & 45, which provide pre-heated air, to the twin-carburettors' air filter housing.
You also need to use, the alternator coverplate (numbered 44), plastic alternator to alternator-coverplate seal (not shown!) and oil-dipstick-tube grommet (numbered 45), which are shown on page 009-00, of the official 1968~79 VW Type 2 Replacement Parts Catalogue & Microfiche, as follows.
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Microfiche/t200900.gif
If you are interested, I think I have some spare VW Type 4 engine style coverplates (including number 10), of those I have mentioned, but it might be quite expensive to send them from Great Britain to Spain!
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet |
Hi Nigel !!! Thanks for your answer. I actually have a type 1 engine, the coverplate i need is the one numbered 9, the numbered 10 is for type4 engines, is it?
If you have a number 9, i´m really interested on it !!!
Thanks again,
Fede. |
Yes, I also have the number 9 coverplate (for the VW Type 1 style engine, installed in a 1972~79 VW 1600 Type 2), available for sale or barter. It's painted with silver-grey Hammerite paint, with a few minor rust spots, but otherwise, it is in very good condition.
As you say, the number 10 coverplate, is for the Type 4 style engine.
Regards. Nigel A. Skeet |
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oorwullie
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Joined: May 01, 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: fribourg,switzerland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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dexter, on a 73 bus the engine compartment is exactly the same shape whether a 1600 engine or a type 4 was fitted from new.the only noticeable difference is the 1600 airfilter mounting on the right hand (battery)side.
you try looking for any spanish VW clubs? they do exist. |
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Uncle_John
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Joined: April 17, 2005
Posts: 57
Location: tulsa, oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| allthewayalive wrote: |
| what was required to mount the engine to the trans, if the '72 uses a 210 mm flywheel with the 5 bolts instead of the 200mm with the gland nut? i mean, the flywheels are not exactly interchangeable... |
you have to grind down the input shaft on the tranny. On a bus the bearing is different than on a bug(t4 compared to t1). if I'm not mistaken the bearing is on the input shaft on a bus? the flywheel requires a little clearancing of the bellhousing(use the bug flywheel). I've seen one where they just installed the engine and started it up and let it grind out its own groove, it's that close. Not sure about the starter, but I thing it's a bug starter.
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Chris Vellat
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Joined: April 09, 2004
Posts: 1590
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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#9 is the 'front tin' (Front is front)... #25 is the rear tin.
A Type I engine into Type IV vehicle doesn't require bellhousing clearancing nor a special starter...and the 002 trannies don't need the input shaft cut down, you may install a `68-`71 (US) input shaft. A Type IV has the input shaft bearing in the crank while a Type I has it in the glandnut.
The overcylinder tins are also somewhat special and have an additional nut welded into them to attach to the front tin.
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typesoneandtwo
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Joined: September 29, 2004
Posts: 659
Location: Cape Cod Mass. Bass River
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Vellat wrote: |
#9 is the 'front tin' (Front is front)... #25 is the rear tin.
A Type I engine into Type IV vehicle doesn't require bellhousing clearancing nor a special starter...and the 002 trannies don't need the input shaft cut down, you may install a `68-`71 (US) input shaft. A Type IV has the input shaft bearing in the crank while a Type I has it in the glandnut.
The overcylinder tins are also somewhat special and have an additional nut welded into them to attach to the front tin.
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We discussed this type of modified tin earlier today in another thread.
Where is this available now, or did you get it used? I haven't seen any in awhile.
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