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Piston/Sleeve kits for 85 Vanagon, where do I get them?
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mattcfish
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject: Piston/Sleeve kits for 85 Vanagon, where do I get them? Reply with quote

Just confirmed through leak down testing that my new engine has bad cylinders. Who would you by piston/sleave kits from?
What about displacement/ performance upgrades (I already have a 2.1 stroke)? Should I consider boring out the old sleaves?
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you saying you have a newly rebuilt engine with bad cylinders? If that's the case, I'd go back to whoever rebuilt it and get them to make it right.

There seem to be three routes for pistons and cylinders.

#1: German OEM. On the van-cafe website and others I see OEM Mahle pistons and cylinders listed. I had heard these were hard to find. Maybe that's changed and they are being produced again.

#2: One of the advertisers on this site, AA Performance" sells aftermarket pistons and cylinders in stock and 95.5mm size. They are made in Asia (China or Taiwan) and much has been said by GoWesty in the past about them having the wrong deck height. Still, they are cheap so you might want to contact AA Performance and ask them if the design has been revised to give proper compression ratio.

#3: GoWesty contracted Wiseco Piston to make some forged pistons. They don't advertise them on their website, but if you ask they will sell you the pistons with quality machined cylinders. These pistons are 96mm, so with a 76mm (2.1 liter) crank you end up with 2200cc and a proper compression ratio. Only problem is, they are $695 per set. Still, they are a quality piston and worth the money.

David
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mattcfish
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="D Clymer"]Are you saying you have a newly rebuilt engine with bad cylinders? If that's the case, I'd go back to whoever rebuilt it and get them to make it right.

My builder has agreed to make me a new engine if I want. I won't know until tare down exactly what went wrong. The problem was that it took forever to get the first engine. I figure that if I can get him to help me get the pistons, I'll install them, it will save him time and money, and I'll get another performance upgrade out of the deal. God knows I need something positive to come out of this whole deal.

Thanks for the information
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would go the GW route, and get the displacement upgrade. It is a top quality product. They are a "drop in" upgrade if you have a 2.1 crank. I got mine in late '05 for $600 the set. Now they come with ceramic top coating and moly skirts, which probably accounts for the extra Benjy. You have to call or email GW to get them. Make sure to get their copper combustion seals as well.

To get OEM quality German sets costs about 6 bills anyway. If you see a stock 2.1 set for a lot less, they are probably the Cofap brazilian ones that have the wrong wrist pin location and will result in only 8.3:1 CR. The long block I recently rebuilt with the GW set had had those, and it was a dog. Much more power now, and better fuel efficiency too, due to 9:1 CR and the proper squish zone, as wellas 100 extra cc's.

I would stay away from the Chinese product. Their metallurgy is not up to par. The GW Wiseco's are forged, and lighter than stock.

The bitch with the Wiseco's, though, is the wrist pin clips they use, which are a plain wire circle with no grip ears. Very frustrating to install, even on an engine stand. Ask GW what they use. There is probably some special tool for putting them in.

Your problem sounds like the rings weren't run in right after your first startup. This is a common mistake, because most folks believe you need to baby a new motor. Au contraire.

There are two things that must be done to break in a complete rebuild. If there is a new cam and/or lifters, as soon as it is started, you cannot let the revs fall below 2000. If you must make adjustments, shut it off, adjust and then keep the revs at 2000 for 20 minutes, no load. This will work-harden the cam lobes and lifter faces, while giving enough oil spray from the rod bearings to keep the cam well-oiled as it breaks in. Fold a matchbook cover a couple of times and put it in the throttle gap to hold the revs while you keep an eye out for leaks and watch the temperature.

After that, it should be taken out on the road and run under good load to seat the rings. Get it up into 3rd and 4th on a level stretch of road, and repeatedly let the revs fall off to about 2500, then accelerate at full throttle up to 4500 or so. Do it at least 8-10 times. You must develop high cylinder pressure to force the rings outward so they seat up to match. The crosshatching on the cylinders acts as an abrasive and accelerates the wearing in under high pressure. If this isn't done, the cylinders will get glazed up and the rings will never fully seat. I suspect this may be contributing to your problem.

After doing those break-in procedures, it's good to drop the oil and filter since they will be full of wear particles. Then another change after a couple hundred more miles. After that, do your normal maintenance intervals.
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mattcfish
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject: AA performance has changed there pistons Reply with quote

AA Performance has changed the dish design on the 95.5mm pistons. They now are 9:1 compression, at a fraction of the GoWesty price.

AA,
Iím very interested in VW95WB2200 the 95.5mm Wasserboxer piston kit. Iíve heard these are the Chinese made version.
GoWesty
http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=105
says AA pistons have a different dish on top that make the compression too high (over 10:1). Is this true? Any comments?

Thanks
Matthew Cooper

Hi, Matthew,
That was true, but that piston is discontinue. The new 95.5mm piston C/R is 9:1. the dish on top is 50cc.The old piston dish is 35cc that makes the compression too high. Thank you.
Thomas Lee
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to check the thread just posted today about a Quality German Auto Parts rebuilt longblock. Sounds like the second generation AA pistons still are suspect for giving too low of a compression ratio. The crowns might very well have the proper volume, but if the wrist pin height is wrong, it won't make any difference.

I'd spend the money and get the GoWesty Wisecos.

David
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r39o
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder what stroke would give a good ratio? More stroke means more low end power. Run even bigger tires to lower the RPMs and maybe it wiill all work out?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The new 95.5mm piston C/R is 9:1. the dish on top is 50cc. The old piston dish is 35cc that makes the compression too high.


The OEM dish volume was 47cc, so at 50cc they're a bit off.

The 2.1 head volume is 15cc, according to GW.

With 95.5mm bore, 76mm stroke, you get 2176cc displacement.

With 15cc in the head, 50cc in the piston, and 1mm deck height(squish zone), I get calculated CR at 8.54:1. Not so great. Looks like they overcompensated.

The old AA's with 35cc, figures to 10.52:1CR.
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mattcfish
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Looks like I started something Reply with quote

AA Performance (Chinese made Pistons) sounds like they have issue with GoWesty's
technical info. I'm waiting for his reply about the 95.5cc pistons with the 50cc dish. I like that the owner answers my email personally. I haven't heard back from GoWesty.

Hi, Matt.
Lucas in Gowesty was my good friend until I sold the piston that he want me to make for him to other customers. I didn't know he posted the wrong information about our product until you gave me this info. I will ask him to remove it. Our stock 94mm piston for 2.1 compression height is the same as the German OEM since 3 years ago. Thank you very much!

Thomas
AA Performance Products.
[email protected]
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After trusting a shop to know what to do, we ended up with the QSC pistons during a recent heads/head gasket replacement than grew to include new P&C's. After 1800 miles, they are okay, but low compression. We are a little disappointed. I confirmed with Rocky Jennings and tencentlife that both QSC sets, the 94mm as well as the 95.5 have the wrist pin wrong so are not a good choice unless correcting for that.

For ourselves and others, I am hoping to update this 2007 thread with the current P&C sets that can be used without modification to keep a good compression ratio.

As mentioned above, it seems the current choices are:

1. Mahle, available at vancafe.
2. GoWesty/Wiseco, not listed on website but reportedly available if you ask.
3. AA performance might now be correct--can anyone confirm?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After I ordered the AA's I found that the pin was in the wrong place. Returned them, bit the bullet, and got GoWesty Wisecos. AA may have corrected the problem since then. GoWesty now uses a new design "slipper" piston. Even lighter weight. Not cheap though. They will sell you used Wisecos if you ask.
Rocky and others are modifying rods to make the QSC's etc. work. This may actually be a better solution, because I believe they're using lighter aftermarket rods.
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r39o
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They using different rods?

Or just offset bushings?

How far are the off (again) are the AAs?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

r39o wrote:
They using different rods?

Or just offset bushings?

How far are the off (again) are the AAs?

I think it was 1mm. I butted it up against a stock piston with the pin.
May have changed by now.
I've heard of aftermarket rods being used as well as offset bushings.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can vouch for the quality of the AA Performance Piston/Cylinder sets, I purchased them for my 2.0L aircooled rebuild. I had a machine shop 'mill' the heads to the cylinders for a perfect fit. I have had 5500 miles of trouble free road tripping fun. They are a good choice for a budget build. But only time will tell. Hope this info helps.
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