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Pictures of a open '70 convertible
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kgstef
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:56 am    Post subject: Pictures of a open '70 convertible Reply with quote

Hi Ghia folks,

I'am looking for some pics of the construction of the convertible top and the glass rear window.

Tx,

Stefan

www.vwkarmannghia.be
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pbaptist
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hallo Stefan,

What exactly do you need. I can make some pictures of my 71 in the weekend. Just tell what i have to photograh for you.

Patrick
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1* Karmann Ghia Coupe (1966 Teak)
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chassisboy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

look at the photos in my gallery. I recently restored my top .
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The aussie Trimmer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: 70's top Reply with quote

chassisboy wrote:
look at the photos in my gallery. I recently restored my top .


Not bad chassisboy, but the rubber header bow seal goes onto the timber header bow first and is encased under the top, this will give you a perfect seal.
Having said that if you didnít get the gap exactly right between the header bow and the windscreen rail and have the right rubber profile, this seal wonít happen.
Like anything good groundwork will deliver the best possible outcome.
Cheers, Kev.
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Ghiaddict
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 70's top Reply with quote

The aussie Trimmer wrote:
chassisboy wrote:
look at the photos in my gallery. I recently restored my top .


Not bad chassisboy, but the rubber header bow seal goes onto the timber header bow first and is encased under the top, this will give you a perfect seal.
Cheers, Kev.


I'm not sure I completely agree with this statement. Have you documentation from VW repair procedures to support this?

It's been my understanding that the later version rubber seal for the header, which uses the metal insert strips and screws like the frame-to- door-glass seals, is installed outside the top material. This holds true
only for the 1969.5 to 1974 versions of the top, I believe.
But yes, I do agree the earlier header bow seal for pre-1969.5 tops
does get installed/glued on the wooden bow first and then the top covering is installed.

Is this not correct? If not, I'd like to see the documentation that
states otherwise.
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The aussie Trimmer
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:34 am    Post subject: 70's top Reply with quote

Ghiaddict, If I'm wrong I apologise, I will check my records and get back to you.
Cheers, Kev.
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Ghiaddict
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kev,

No problem!

I've found it hard to find all of the
VW factory literature on this particular item.
If I need to correct my install procedures,
I'm ready to be re-educated. Smile
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waxhead
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chassisboy - nice work! I like the look of the canvas top. Where did you buy the parts to restore the top (header bow, mounting plates, etc)? Did you have to shape the bow it to fit the windshield frame?

I need to replace the one on my '69.
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chassisboy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the wood bow from House of Ghia. It only needed to be sanded on the very ends to fine tune the gap. The rest of the parts I got from KGPR. I stripped the frame, removed the hot set rivets in the pivot points and replaced them with specially machined hardware. Each pivot now has a nylon washer to prevent wear. I sand blasted each component and then por-15ed each piece. I ended up re using the original mid bow because the repro urethane part was too wide to fit in the channel. The top itself is a TMI canvas kit that I bought from Jim Patterson of House of Ghia many years ago. This resto has been going on since 1991!
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jwvert
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice job on the frame. I am at the point of restoring my 71's top as frame as well. Why did you change over to the nuts and nylon washers? Did it tighten the frame up? Mine is extremely wobbly without the material attached.
JW
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The aussie Trimmer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ghiaddict wrote:
Kev,

No problem!

I've found it hard to find all of the
VW factory literature on this particular item.
If I need to correct my install procedures,
I'm ready to be re-educated. Smile


Hi Ghiaddict,
I have trawled through all my information and the web, but I canít find anything to support or disprove this dilemma, although I did find pictures (1 inserted) of a few 70ís + models that had a rubber fixed to the outer side of the top. But, all of these had had the tops replaced; this also gave grounds to the affirmative.
In my experience the trades seem to, (if they donít know whatís the original way to restore something) just follow other makes and most other convertibles have the header seals on the outside.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Another thing that pushes toward the affirmative is the KGPR catalogue (inserted) shows the header bow seal for 57-74, (No 15) (which is the same hollow rubber profile as the original) as the same for all models. This seams to ring true, as the header bow didnít change shape, through all those years. The only obvious change was the sculptured out area, which housed the early locking apparatus and was deleted on the later model bows.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The other small seal (shown as a X) was glued to the middle of the header bow and was shaved from thick in the middle to thin towards the sides before the main seal was fitted, as this area lifted slightly when the locking mechanisms was applied, causing a breach in the header seal.

Bottom line, I canít really prove or disprove whether or not the seal on the 70ís + models was exposed or covered. But itís my own personal opinion, that the seal worked more successfully in the covered installation, it didnít deteriorate from being exposed to the elements and it didnít mark the header rail duco. As you said, there isnít very much information in this area.
The only info I have support the early fitting of the header seal, but they donít touch on the seal for the later cab's, which makes me think the seal was under the top. If you find out anything more on this subject, please let me know.
Cheers,
Kev.
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YellowSplittie
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 30K mile '74 that I worked on last year had the header bow seal exposed.
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crocteau
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen two types of header bow seals.
One type was a solid spongy-rubber seal with rectangular cross-section, the other type looked like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
.
I'm no expert, but I reckon the latter was designed to be exposed, although I don't know which edge should be forward. Any clues?

Thanks,
Charley
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Ghiaddict
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YellowSplittie wrote:
The 30K mile '74 that I worked on last year had the header bow seal exposed.


Yes! I have also seen OG (never replaced) late model
convertible tops and the seal was installed outside the
top covering/exposed.
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Ghiaddict
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crocteau wrote:
I've seen two types of header bow seals.
One type was a solid spongy-rubber seal with rectangular cross-section, the other type looked like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
.
I'm no expert, but I reckon the latter was designed to be exposed, although I don't know which edge should be forward. Any clues?

Thanks,
Charley


The closed edge should face forward, so as not to
catch wind & water between the lips (if installed with
the open edge forward). 99% sure, as there's a pic in the BFY catalog
that seems to support this placement. Seems some Bugs used
a very similar/same seal 1968-72.
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Ramblinwreck
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The picture is great, but could someone provide me with a little more instruction on how this CV top seal is installed?? I too have both the rectangular (grey) seal and the one shown in the photo here.
Using the pix as guide....do i glue the lip with the small ripples/at top of this photo to the top bow (over the material)?? The seal will then hinge/rotate about the right edge of the seal (the pointed edge on the right) in the photo.
IOW the seal between the convertible top and the car body will occur along the bottom edge of the seal in the photo....correct??
Thanks, sorry for being so anal.
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crocteau
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ramblinwreck, That's the logical orientation as I understand it, too. Glue sounds good, and one additional bit of advice given to me was to sandwich the upper lip of the rubber seal (with the small ripples) between the top material on the header bow and a strip of something like posterboard for reenforcement, then to staple it in place. Completing my top installation is one of this winter's projects, so I've got my eye out for some relatively stiff but resilient plastic "posterboard-like" material that I think will work. This may not be the original factory-correct approach, but after reading the tech bulletin about stopping leaks on a cabriolet it seems that folks at the factory had some second thoughts as well.
Charley
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Ramblinwreck
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Crocteau, I confirmed this installation earlier today when quite by coincidence i was able to inspect an original seal installation on a 72 CV top.
The CV seal on this car was positioned just as we've been describing with the "pointy end" acting as leading edge facing forward, and the "ripply tab" clamped by an aluminum strip to the CV fabric and top bow. The seal leading edge was carefully positioned immediately behind the CV top fabric stitching.
The AL strip (0.25x0.0675x18 inches +/-) clamped the seal to the bow with nails (yes nails) driven into the top bow through holes equally spaced at 2.0 inches OC along the entire AL strip and seal length. The seal ends were cleverly curved and fastened to abutt the end of the door seal.
I couldn't tell if glue was used between the ripply tab-top space, but a liberal application of "gorilla snot" would seem appropriate not only to position the seal firmly prior to installation of the AL strip but to prevent moisture infiltration as well.
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crocteau
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the observation and additional info, Ramblinwreck!
Charley
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Ghiaddict
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's great! Smile
It's good to know we got it right,
at least some of the time.
The surviving factory literature on some
obscure topics is sometimes HTF
and not fully detailed.
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