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Syncro Transporter Front Disc Brake Conversion, Step by Step
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Mikees86TransSyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Syncro Transporter Front Disc Brake Conversion, Step by Step Reply with quote

Here is how to easily, relatively inexpensively, change your front discs on the Syncro to Vented, Cross-drilled, double piston calipered Audi Brakes.

First off - take a look at these pics -

Should have a caption saying "is there any other reason needed?"

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Original
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Original
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Then what we are installing -

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Audi 5000cs Quattro Brakes

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Audi 5000cs Quattro Brakes

First off - don't use used parts. New parts are easy, cheap, clean, and have no questions. If you have used Audi parts, buy rebuilt and turn them in as the core.

Never use used brake parts.

Tomorrow - part numbers, sources, measurements, steps.
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Mikees86TransSyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found the most inexpesive, immediate shipper of parts to be www.rockauto.com. Tell them what you want, pay a good price, and have it the next day - can't beat that.

I ordered 1989 Audi 5000CS turbo Front brake calipers, brake pads, and rotors, prices and part numbers as follows;

A-1 CARDONE 19B989 Caliper $ 76.79
A-1 CARDONE 19B988 Caliper $ 76.79
447615301B/ZD Rotor $ 66.79 (X2)
BECK/ARNLEY 0821366 ([email protected]) Brake Pad $ 23.79

Total in parts, $353.95 - You can halve that by returning cores on the calipers. - please - don't install used brakes or brake parts - what my dad would call penny wise, pound foolish.

Take off the old calipers, clean everything.While you are in there, use the INGGBIHAS principle - I'm not gonna get back in here soon - so consider replacing the upper & lower ball joints & bearings[/img]
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vwjedi
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good. Very Happy

Can't wait to see finished product and hear about any snags that get solved along the way. Wink
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So does the Audi caliper carrier bolt directly to the Syncro upright, no mods other than the spacer?
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Mikees86TransSyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VERY IMPORTANT (getting to this today) The caliper carrier does not just bolt directly on - Modifications on the spacing & size of the holes will be covered here, as well as a mechanical drawing of the spacer required.
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Mikees86TransSyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First thing you notice when you receive the new brakes - they just look better, bigger, meatier, more significant.
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Second thing you notice - mounting holes are so close to being correct, but are the wrong diameter and spacing.

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The BEST place to get a pattern/measurement is from the carrier itself - bring both the old & new you a local machine shop, and have the holes drilled out to the larger size found on the VW caliper carrier. Don't worry about the threads, you will not need them.

Again, I like to strip/clean everything - who knows when I'll get under here again. Here is what it looks like in the beginning of cleanup. I'm in here already, so I will also replace upper & lower balljoints, as well as the tie rod end - all the rubber is cracked, and the parts total under $100 for peace of mind.

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ACK! Ya always find something else that needs work, don't ya? Notice the sway-bar link - snapped clean off. Both sides. Rubber on tie-rod end, upper & lower ball-joints is GONE.

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[/img]
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are the piston sizes in those Audi calipers?
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doublez72
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Will this work with 14in stock rims? Reply with quote

thanks,

Joe
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Mikees86TransSyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Answering questions -




1. No This will not work with 14 inch rims - 15 inch minimum

2. Diameter of new caliper pistons is 40mm X 2 pistons
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikees86TransSyncro wrote:
2. Diameter of new caliper pistons is 40mm X 2 pistons


Ah, excellent, thanks! Those are exactly the size of my front callipers and they are matched perfectly with the Vanagon's master cylinder. The pedal feel and travel are excellent.
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mtac
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikee,
nice post
were you going to continue?
show the install?
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Mikees86TransSyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK - sorry for the delay - I took apart the right front end of my syncro - found the ball joints were bad. Took it apart, waited for parts, removed some undercoating, found rust, got far too involved with repairing rust, removing undercoat (which is close to impossible) planned on replacing CVs, boots, rubber, etc.

Wife came out in the garage and said "perhaps, Michael, you may wish to consider the pros & cons of simply completing the vehicle to make it driveable, as this is your only car. And I love you for all your hard work"

Well, that was what she meant to say. What she actually said was much shorter, and much, uh, meaner.

I purchased a 65 Nissan Patrol a few years ago. I parked it in my garage one weekend to "do a few fixes". 3 years later, here it is;

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So she has a point.

I replaced the upper & lower ball joints, re-packed the bearings (purchased replacement, found it was not yet needed), replaced tie rod ends, painted, cleaned & removed undercoating.

I purchased upper control arm bushings, but found they were not really needed.

I have a machine shop I always use because they are quick. Of course they don't have the modified caliper carriers done yet. I'll post again tomorrow when they are done.

(Note - yes, that is carpet on my garage floor. Not the cheap stuff, either. Try it - next time you replace the carpet in your home, keep the old stuff & put it in the garage - you will wonder how you went so long without it.

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kpbo
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this--I'm seriously considering the same upgrade in my Syncro and this info is really helpful.

Incidentally, do you [or anyone] happen to know if these brakes will fit behind the commonly used Audi 5000 '6-spoke' alloy wheels (15x6, ET45)?

Thanks, and keep the updates coming!
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kpbo wrote:
Thanks for posting this--I'm seriously considering the same upgrade in my Syncro and this info is really helpful.

Incidentally, do you [or anyone] happen to know if these brakes will fit behind the commonly used Audi 5000 '6-spoke' alloy wheels (15x6, ET45)?

Thanks, and keep the updates coming!


If you're talking about the standard Audi 5000 Turbo wheel, yes they do fit, but it's best to use Turbo wheels from 1986-1988. The earlier ones look the same but they were made to fit around the earlier G54 calipers. They do clear these G60s, but only by about 1.5 mm at the closest point.

David
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Mikees86TransSyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally -

OK - The old caliper carriers, the old bolts, and the new Audi caliper carriers - bring them ALL down to a competent machine shop. The machine shop will use the old caliper carriers as templates for the hole spacing.

My machine shop is great - they also were more than happy to thread the new holes so the old VW bolts would work. NOTE - With this method, there is an area in each new hole where the will be NO THREADS. We reviewed this, and found that approximately 15-18% of the circumfrence would have no threads. (there is a little "moon" of the old hole on the side of the new hole)

On speaking with metal guys I trust, they advised that this would be stronger tan drilling holes, no threads & using a nut/washer (as shown elsewhere on this forum) so I trusted the experts.

So we received our caliper carriers back - I wanted to plate them, or poweder coat, because I hate rusty hardware. The boss, however, had different ideas (the wife said "get the Go&& DAM%67 car back on the road or so help me GOD I'll rip your %^&*()_ off!. Or something like that. So we decided to just get the whole thing back together.

The caliper carriers have a little too much metal on the mounting face, which will cause interference when bolting this together. The GOOD news is that the carrier almost shows you exactly what / where needs to be taken off. No loss in strength, and takes 3 minutes with a good grinder.

BEFORE
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AFTER
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Brake pads are great big meaty mothers - very impressive. They have the sensor wire attached to one pad of each set, just snip them off.

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I had one-piece solid spacers made, 8mm thick, same bolt-hole spacing. Did not like the idea of using washers or two spacers per caliper. Some grinding IS required to be able to wrap it around the suspension.

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Really, from there, it is just a matter of bolting it all together.

The brake line I used the same mounting bracket on the suspension, and cut a new metal brake line maybe 3 inches long to connect the whole setup.

Bleeding was a breeze - open the breathers, fill up the res, and wait till it pours out clear.

Finished Product -

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CONCLUSION? Would I do it again?

Cost? Maybe $400 bucks. Not an issue
Results? HOLY MOLY!! THAT is what brakes are supposed to feel like. Let me put it this way - I was planning on doing the rear brakes in a disk conversion next. With these up front, I don't feel I need rear brakes AT ALL! Yeah, well worth it.

I hope this was helpful to someone - if it was helpful, please let me know. If it sucked, you can let me know too, but I won't care.

I am doing the rear disk brake conversion next - any suggestions or improvements over this project for the next one would be appreciated.

MJP - 9/18/2007
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Mikees86TransSyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:12 pm    Post subject: ALSO - Reply with quote

What would I do differently? I would find a way to get the machining done first. Buy used caliper carriers for templates, hell new ones, anything. Only thing that held this project up was my trusty machinist.

Nothing else would be done differently - stops smooth, true, and strong.
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That all looks great. Thanks for sharing it with us.

I do have one area of concern though.

Mikees86TransSyncro wrote:
NOTE - With this method, there is an area in each new hole where the will be NO THREADS. We reviewed this, and found that approximately 15-18% of the circumfrence would have no threads. (there is a little "moon" of the old hole on the side of the new hole)

On speaking with metal guys I trust, they advised that this would be stronger tan drilling holes, no threads & using a nut/washer (as shown elsewhere on this forum) so I trusted the experts.


Provided that the fasteners are of equal quality and used in the correct manor (proper length of non-threaded shank used), it is physically impossible for a threaded hole that has 15-18% of it's threads missing to be as strong as a bolt and nut used in a non-threaded hole. I personally would not be comfortable using a component in a braking system that had 15-18% of the threads missing. This means that you have more than 15-18% grip strength missing at the threads due to the increased load imposed in the remaining threads.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikees86TransSyncro wrote:
NOTE - With this method, there is an area in each new hole where the will be NO THREADS. We reviewed this, and found that approximately 15-18% of the circumfrence would have no threads. (there is a little "moon" of the old hole on the side of the new hole)
On speaking with metal guys I trust, they advised that this would be stronger than drilling holes, no threads & using a nut/washer (as shown elsewhere on this forum) so I trusted the experts.


I agree with Chris that a nut is probably stronger. But my opinion is that it will be plenty strong with those big finethread bolts. If the bolt tightens to full recommended torque and comes up to torque abruptly, I think you can be confident you're getting full strength out of it.

FYI, Suprisingly a typical bolt+nut (not a finethread) provides full static strength in tension with only 3 threads engagement. Threads are strong in static tension. Typically you want about 6 threads minimum to reduce the friction, and in bolts that get 'exercise' (lugs etc - off/on/off/on/off/on) you want more than 6 ---> most lugs are lots, like at least 12 threads. You might conclude that I am full of lugnuts Laughing Laughing that might be the case!

However, in this case, the main concern is not thread strength, but if the bolt can keep its tightness. I don't think there is much stretch in a big bolt like that, therefore I would use loctite (blue) to be sure it stays tight....... And on the other side, I'm pretty sure these would let you know if they got loose, the calipers would make some racket or scrape the disc/wheel they won't just fall off.

Tom
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magician
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great conversion. I am recently back into a T3. What are the odds this conversion would also work on a 2wd?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikees86TransSyncro wrote:
Answering questions -




1. No This will not work with 14 inch rims - 15 inch minimum




2. Diameter of new caliper pistons is 40mm X 2 pistons


Pleasecheck again, the G60 caliper has two pistons in each, however the pistons measure 36mm and 44mm each. Two different size pistons per caliper. There is even a variation of this caliper, different part number but the smaller piston and larger piston is reversed on the same side . Audi did this , if i remember correctly for the S4, where the caliper is mounted towards the front as opposed to the rear, they found that this cured a squeek when they used the original caliper in the new position.
You want bigger brakes for you set up, using you same system replace the caliper carriers with TT carriers and install a larger rotor. Don't recall the model of rotor but the set up involves exactly what you just did.
I spent a lot of time researching Audi brakes before I made my 2wd set up.
By the way this whole set up you desribed is being sold on e-bay by someone regularly, starting bid is 500$, with a buy it now of 550$. All work ,mods done , just bolt it on.
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