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Tiico diesel conversion
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MattVW
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:46 pm    Post subject: Tiico diesel conversion Reply with quote

Anyone here done a Tiico 1.9TD conversion or at least thought about/considered it?

http://www.tiico.com/Diesel%20conversion%20page.htm

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Does anyone make a bull bar for Vanagons with the fiberglass bumpers? If not, is there a place where I could get one custom made?

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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the track record of their gas conversion, I would wait a while and see how the components hold up. Tiico has a history of poorly designed secondary components and unkept promises about CARB conformity. I noticed in their photos that their example engine is using the early style 82 jointed carrier bars. I wonder if all their kits will use those.

At any rate it is an interesting development. The price doesn't sound bad if the engine rebuild really is a quality one. I'd still want to wait and see what peoples' experiences are.

David
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jackbombay
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seems like a decent deal, providing the rebuild is up to snuff, but I'd rather get all the bits rounded up for a TDI swap and do that. Easy to find parts, lower emissions, %10 better MPGs... But a larger investment of time, thats for sure.
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Dogpilot
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to be flippant, but the fiberglass bumpers are no way strong enough for any kind of bull bar made of metal. You may as well make them from PVC and paint them to match, since they would be decorative only.

Other than that you would have to cut the bumper and mount to the bumper frame below.

This guy published plans to have your own made:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~pjlander/Bullbar.htm
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Last edited by Dogpilot on Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MattVW
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
Given the track record of their gas conversion, I would wait a while and see how the components hold up. Tiico has a history of poorly designed secondary components and unkept promises about CARB conformity. I noticed in their photos that their example engine is using the early style 82 jointed carrier bars. I wonder if all their kits will use those.

At any rate it is an interesting development. The price doesn't sound bad if the engine rebuild really is a quality one. I'd still want to wait and see what peoples' experiences are.

David


I agree. There are people who hate their Tiico's and others who love them. It really depends on who does the conversion and who has the experience. I would think parts for the TDI are hard to get since not many people have them. Not sure if vancafe.com has parts for it.

I just like the fact that it's diesel and it gets good MPG. The only down sides are probably poor pickup, noise and difficulty in getting parts.

When Tiico began offering the TDI I initially thought people would be all over it. Having viewed lots of classified adds on here, a lot of the sellers have said "don't ask if it's a diesel because it's not, so don't ask." Apparently lots of people like the diesel.
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jackbombay
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MattVW wrote:
I would think parts for the TDI are hard to get since not many people have them. Not sure if vancafe.com has parts for it.


Parts for the swap or parts for maintenance? Maintenance parts will be far easier to get for a TDI than for a TD that wasn't ever sold in this country, AFAIK. Swap parts are available enough on ebay for a 50* install, most you can fab yourself anyway.

MattVW wrote:
I just like the fact that it's diesel and it gets good MPG. The only down sides are probably poor pickup, noise and difficulty in getting parts.


I can't hear my TDI above 40 MPH and it has no cat or muffler of any sort, 3' of pipe out the back, thats it. Enough power for sure, not going to win any races, but certainly not slow.
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

indeed even my 1.6td isn't slow , in fact it'll out accelerate my friends 1.9
though probably not mom's 2.1

and like mentioned theres little engine noise at speed, it's all road and wind noise in mine. maybe after I replace front door seals and add soundproofing.

fuel economy can vary ALOT in a TD from par to good or even great..
it all depends on driving style, and engine tune-up. but i get far more range on a full tank when traveling with other camper friends

i get from 24-27mpg but do tend to push it over 70mph on the interstates, I always figure my MPG @ 25 for ease.
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jackbombay
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:

i get from 24-27mpg but do tend to push it over 70mph on the interstates, I always figure my MPG @ 25 for ease.


Do you have an EGT gauge? I would be interested to know what its says at 70 MPH on flat ground if you have one. Boost gauge?

My oil ran fairly hot at 65 or above, at 65 on a 30* F day the oil hit 220* F over rolling hills, probably still climbing a bit too. I put a BIG oil cooler in with a thermostat and now under the same conditions it runs at 187* or so with a coolant temp of 190*.

While my van can go over 80 the upper end of its "happy zone" is about 60, it really likes 55 though Cool

At 65 and above boost is running close to max all the time, the engine is stock and I'd like to think it cant make enough power/heat to kill itself, but...

I do have an EGT gauge, but I still have to pull the exhaust mani to drill and tap it for the probe, that will let me know whats really going on.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackbombay, what transmission/gearing/tires are you using? I wouldn't think a TDI would be hitting max boost at cruise at 80. Also, which turbo (wastegated or VNT)? And did you do the full electronics or TDI-m?

Andrew
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
Jackbombay, what transmission/gearing/tires are you using? I wouldn't think a TDI would be hitting max boost at cruise at 80. Also, which turbo (wastegated or VNT)? And did you do the full electronics or TDI-m?

Andrew


27.5" tall tires (and I can just barely fit chains in the rear), .77 4th, 2800 RPM at ~63 MPH, its an AHU/wastegated turbo, full electronic install.

While the boost is maxed out at 65 MPH and above there is still go pedal left, boost maxes out when fueling is at about %70 (Boost gauge is reading 15 and you put the pedal all the way down and get more power but the boost gauge stays at 15), not sure why, my ALH isn't like that, but I have never driven another AHU with a boost gauge to know if mine is operating incorrectly, no codes, fwiw.

Based on towing decent sized loads around with my Jetta and seeing how much boost it runs I feel the boost is about where it should be for the westy. It does have a ko3/ko4 hybrid in it too, stock software, bu that will change sometime this winter Twisted Evil
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could adjust the wastegate. I thought the TDIs ran 18-20psi. FWIW, my 1.6TD wouldn't max out the boost on cruise going 75 using a k14.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
You could adjust the wastegate. I thought the TDIs ran 18-20psi.


Boost is controlled by the ECU though, adjusting the wastegate does little till you adjust it far enough that the ECU can no longer control it as it sees fit, then you get a CEL. I have not messed with it myself, but that is how I understand it to work. It can all be changed to whatever you want with a remap though. Stock boost on the AHU is 13-14 PSI at sea level, for the ALH its ~15.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only way I have to watch my engine is with my Laptop using the VagCom software. I know there is a lot you can do to improve the performance of the TDI, but I am more than happy with the performance gains I got over the original 1600 NA diesel. I trust the engineers at VW for getting as much out of the TDI that they could and not sacrifice reliability. The Vangon Camper is heavy and about as aero as a shoebox. I get a bit of vibration at the shift point on acceleration, but once you are into fourth going down the road, the engine is quite smooth. I have a used Borla muffler that quiets the engine enough to hear the turbo spooling. If you are not into electronics, TDI is not for you. I like the idea of a turbo diesel with a mechanical pump. Should be bullet proof. With my engine, I can be cruising 70 and pull into the left lane and accelerate to 85 to pass if needed. 65mph is actually more comfortable. You set the cruise and ride along. Conversions are not cheap. The more of a hand you have in the conversion, the easier it will be once you get on the road. Problems will come up, and you may need to fix them yourself.
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jackbombay
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
I trust the engineers at VW for getting as much out of the TDI that they could and not sacrifice reliability. The Vangon Camper is heavy and about as aero as a shoebox.... .....With my engine, I can be cruising 70 and pull into the left lane and accelerate to 85 to pass if needed. 65mph is actually more comfortable.


Well, at 70 MPH I'm sure your motor oil is over heating significantly (assuming you've added no additional oil cooling, you do trust the engineers, right? Wink Intake mani clogging, coolant migration, undercut shafts in VNT turbos, window regulator clips, faulty brake switches, heated seats that light themselves on fire, the list goes on....), which also causes a notable drop in oil pressure.

While "trusting engineers" has its place, I don't think TDI westy swaps is one of them as we are making our TDIs push around %30-50 more weight than they were designed to along with notably crappier aerodynamics than the car it should be in. We are operating the TDI outside its design parameters and steps should be taken to make sure it is halfway close to "happy" back there.

I love having a TDI in the back of my westy but it needs to be set-up accordingly, extra oil cooling, as much intercooling as possible (mine will have 2 intercoolers before winter is out), and free flowing exhaust (easy since its only a few feet of pipe) are the primary concerns, IMO.

I did some reading at BITOG* about oil temps, guys there are claiming that for every 20* F the oil runs above engine operating temp the life of the oil is cut in half due to oxidation, 220* oil temp with a stock TDI in a westy is alarmingly easy to achieve which is already 30* above operating temp. At 70 MPH on a warm summer day with a bone stock TDI your oil temps are probably ~250* Shocked

*It was unclear if they were referring to conventional motor oil, synthetic, or both. Synthetic can take more heat without breaking down, how much isn't all that clear.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack, you could be right. I was using the reference of 70mph as to how much umph was left. With the 215/65/16's I am seeing about 3000 rpm at 65. Would like a taller 4th gear. I am running an intercooler that was custom made to fit behind the L/R tailight. My trusting the engineers was that I would not want to try and up the hp and torque more than it has. It is plenty quick and has enough torque to drive around the smokey mountains. Bigger, pump, injectors, chip would only drive up the operating temperatures. I use mobile one and am counting on the factory oil to water heat exchanger for now. Driving in 100 plus degrees this summer, the engine coolant temp remained constant. In order to have the flyby wire, odb II connector and cruise control, I had to run quite a few wires back to the engine compartment. Guages will be a nice addition at some point to monitor egt, boost, oil temp etc. I just don't want to rig them in. Next projects will be a dash air for those 100 degree days and an auxilary battery hookup. I can look at adding guages while I have the dash board out.

The main point of my post was that I like the idea of a mechanical pump rather than fly by wire. This could be a conversion that could be done with minimal amount of tools and time. My TDI conversion took years to complete in my spare time. What I did do, was leave the EGR intact, but disabled it using the software. I also put an aluminum plate between the intake and the egr inlet. This would prevent the carbon buildup I have read about. I have not gotten a code yet in 3000 miles. An external oil cooler would be nice as long as it was tied into a thermostat. I don't like the idea of having to purge all the air out of the oil system on startup to get pressure. After all the years I spent doing the conversion, it was just nice to finally have it back on the road. And as I said earlier. What a difference over the stock 1600 diesel.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
My trusting the engineers was that I would not want to try and up the hp and torque more than it has. Bigger, pump, injectors, chip would only drive up the operating temperatures.


That engine, ALH, with the same internals was sold in europe with 130 HP so getting some more ponies out of them "here" is pretty harmless.

I won't use the extra power for cruising at higher speeds, but its nice for getting on the highway, stomping up hills that aren't too long and that sort of stuff. To cruise at 60 before and after mods will use the same amount of fuel, a touch less after remapping actually with optimized injection timing.

rsxsr wrote:
I use mobile one and am counting on the factory oil to water heat exchanger for now. Driving in 100 plus degrees this summer, the engine coolant temp remained constant.


Oil temp can vary significantly from coolant temp though, my coolant temp has never been over 200 while oil temp goes right past there easily with only the factory oil cooler. I do have a 180* thermostatic sandwich plate for my auxillary oil cooler. With or without my additional oil cooler oil temps move quite slowly, it takes 8 miles or so on the highway to get the oil up to temp where the coolant temp comes up a lot faster.

Quote:
In order to have the flyby wire, odb II connector and cruise control, I had to run quite a few wires back to the engine compartment.


No doubt, wire gets spendy when you need a few hundred feet of it. I took a bunch of 20' sections of wire, zip tied one of the ends of all the pieces to my shed then tied all the other ends together, chucked them up in my drill and spun them together so it resembles a rope of sorts, easy to run a bunch of wires at once that way and they are far less messy/easy to put in a split loom plastic protector thing.

To identify the wires at the front of the van is pretty easy, hook the end of one wire at the rear of the van up to 12V then use a test light at the front of the van under the dash to find the wire you "are currently working with".

Quote:
I can look at adding guages while I have the dash board out.


Heres what I did, EGT on the left and coolant temp on the right,

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Quote:
What I did do, was leave the EGR intact, but disabled it using the software. I also put an aluminum plate between the intake and the egr inlet. This would prevent the carbon buildup I have read about. I have not gotten a code yet in 3000 miles.


You did the Vag-Com adaptation to reduce the EGR duty cycle? If so, you should be fine with regards to CELs, I ran like that for a couple years (no EGR with vag-com adaptation), at low altitude and warm weather I never got a CEL, but at temps below 30* and at high altitude (6,200') I would get a CEL once a month or so, always in a higher gear, putting along at 1,400 RPM or so.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mechanical TDI pumps are readily available and quite easy to make (I have two on my workbench right now). I totally agree with jackbombay regarding increasing the oil cooling. The stock oil/coolant heat exchangers on the inline-4 are a joke at best. They run the hottest coolant from the head, down through the oil cooler and right back into the engine completely bypassing the radiator. Interestingly enough, the hose routing for the cooler on the stock vanagon is such that there is no flow through it when the thermostat is closed. So basically, it doesn't warm the oil up until the engine is up to temp, and then pre-heats it. Confused

Andrew
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MattVW
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the TDI run at really high RPM's like the 2.1 does?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MattVW wrote:
Does the TDI run at really high RPM's like the 2.1 does?


It has a redline of 4750, but is happiest below 3000, the TD that tiico is selling is happier at higher revs than the TDI.
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