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Anyone ever run Royal purple engine oil?
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Zippo
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:34 pm    Post subject: Anyone ever run Royal purple engine oil? Reply with quote

Anyone ever run "Royal Purple" engine oil in there vans?? Also any opinions about it?? Any better milage or anything like that??
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bucko
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perform a search on "oil". You will see that the great debate on oil has been talked about many times, and there are many opinions.

Basically, you will want to spend your hard earned mony on an oil that has a high zinc level (.12 or over).

Brad Penn Racing oil got the "thumbs up" for this. Your engine will last longer with the higher zinc (not found in todays oils you buy at your local FLAPS).
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Zippo
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the info
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anybody tried this stuff?
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bucko
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perales wrote:
Has anybody tried this stuff?
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Where did you find it? MSINABOTTLE and others have used a zinc additive, with good results. I have not been able to find anything like it at the local FLAPS stores I go to, but would be interested in it if I could find it. Beats paying the prices for racing oil off of the internet shopping stores.
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Perales
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the problem Bucko, I didn't find it! I am trying to find a Canadian source. You can order it online:
http://www.zddplus.com/purchase_sixpack.htm
However getting this kind of stuff accross the border is sometimes a bit difficult and expensive.
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bucko
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perales wrote:
That's the problem Bucko, I didn't find it! I am trying to find a Canadian source. You can order it online:
http://www.zddplus.com/purchase_sixpack.htm
However getting this kind of stuff accross the border is sometimes a bit difficult and expensive.


Yep, good site to read up on it. I ordered a couple of bottles to get me through the next two oil changes. Now I can drop buying the Valvoline Racing oil from NAPA, and changing it every 1000 miles (since this racing oil has little or no detergents).

http://www.zddplus.com/

You can read up on it (very good write up and explaination), then click on "buy bottle(s) or case", and it will take you to a vendor that sells and ships here in the states.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This page shows Mobil1 15w-50 Extended Performance has 1200 ppm nominal phosphorous level, which equates to higher levels of ZDDP.

1200ppm is 0.12%, and the threshold for concern appears to be oils with less than 0.1%. Is another supplement required?

What about the STP in the red bottle?

I recall a lengthy thread about this, but have forgotten the bottom line.

I'm still trying to decide on oil for the upcoming season.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

riceye wrote:
This page shows Mobil1 15w-50 Extended Performance has 1200 ppm nominal phosphorous level, which equates to higher levels of ZDDP.

1200ppm is 0.12%, and the threshold for concern appears to be oils with less than 0.1%. Is another supplement required?

What about the STP in the red bottle?

I recall a lengthy thread about this, but have forgotten the bottom line.

I'm still trying to decide on oil for the upcoming season.

Thanks!


Well, we'll most likey catch grief for bringing up an old topic (yet again), but what the heck!

TENCENTLIFE did an excellent writeup on the requirements of our older engines needed ZDDP, so I'll only mention that his suggestion was for a ZDDP of .13 or better.

So, the oil you mention is close enough I suppose.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Bucko... You're probably right. We may well be beating a dead horse.

I just spent 45 minutes reading the threads listed when I searched this forum with the term "ZDDP".

Looks like some oil manufacturers have chosen to include formulations with higher ZDDP concentrations. They are probably required to have a disclaimer on the bottle about "not being used in vehicles with catalytic conveters since 1993" or something similar.

Cheers!
Ric
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deprivation
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also you can get in by-the-bottle on eBay if you're not in to buying a case.
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multimac
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deprivation wrote:
Also you can get in by-the-bottle on eBay if you're not in to buying a case.


You can also buy it by the bottle(s) on the site that was mentioned in one of the above responses (http://www.zddplus.com/ ).
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are the issues about running ZddPlus with a cat?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What are the issues about running ZddPlus with a cat?


The reason that oil manufacturers were required to drop the ZDDP levels to 0.08% was to reduce "poisoning" of exhaust components (cat converters) with phosphorous, to keep auto manufacturers on track with 10 year/100,000 mile exhaust systems. Similar to "lead poisoning" of converters prior to the unleaded gas mandate back in the '70s.

This began in 2006.

Its a fine line to walk. Concentration of 0.12 - 0.14% seems sufficient for lubrication quality, yet does not poison converters in healthy vehicles. Curiously, concentrations above 0.2% appear to be detrimental to engines, and can also shorten engine life.

Lots of info on the web. Believe what you wish!

Salud-
Ric
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK I am really getting cornfused on all this oil info. I am not a chemist nor mechanic. Shell Rotella T 15W-40 is what I use in my 1.9 ltr. WBX. I read the article suggested by multimac, The article said the oil was formulated for engines built before 1973 with flat tappets and is not to be used in a car with a catalytic converter. Motorhead Classic Hi-Z motor oil, 15W-40, zinc/phosphorous level .125 percent. $14.50 Gal. multimac you are going to use it in your 84 WBX ? Do you not have a catalytic converter ? Do the 1.9 ltr. WBX's have flat tappets ?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man they make it difficult to find this stuff on the websites, but since I found it I thought I would share it. This is what I have been using on my '87. I see that the zinc level is 0.09 ! ... too low!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you read the sites data, and/or TENCENTLIFE's excellent write-up he did about a month or so ago, it would be alot easier to understand. Here's some help: newer automotive engines are equipped with roller tappets (lifters), and therefore do not have the friction and wear between the cam lob and lifters. Because of these roller tappets, and catalitic converters, ZDDP levels in newer oils dropped below .10, and our VW engines (along with any other engine not equipped with roller tappets) will wear sooner in the area of cam lobe and lifters with the newer, lower level ZDDP oils. Also, "cat" equipped cars can plug at around 100,000 miles due to the added (higher levels) of zinc (ZDDP), so if you're running a cat in your exhaust, be aware that the higher levels can cause plugging. So, ZDDP keeps down wear on the cam lobes and lifters, but can cause the catalitic to plug.

For some time, you could buy diesel rated oils that had higher levels of ZDDP, but even they now have lower than required levels of ZDDP (.09 or less).

Solution? Buy a ZDDP and phosphorous additive as mentioned in the beginning of this thread. This way you can buy and use the newer oils that are now being sold at your FLAPS, and add the required ZDDP that will reduce wear in the area of the cam lobes and tappets/lifters.

I have over 174,000 miles on my 1.9. This was due in major part in using oils with a good content of wear reducers (ZDDP).

It's your engine. Use whatever oil you want, but be aware of the fact that these older engines were built around the oils of yester year. Now that the ZDDP has been reduced, and the newer engines can hadle this because of their roller tappets, no harm done for them. Our engines however will suffer.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Bucko. I got in touch with ZddPlus earlier today and they connected me with a Canadian distributor so it looks like I can order it north of the border after all. I think I am actually starting to get a handle on this stuff.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recommended levels of zinc and phosphorus should be in the range 0.12-0.14% (12-14 ppm) for antiwear protection in flat-tappet engines. The levels were already dropped to 10ppm or less with the advent of the API SM rating, to protect gasoline-motor catalysts from long-term damage from the phosphorus in the ZDDP ( zinc dialkyl dithiosphosphate ) molecule, but favorable levels were maintained in mixed-fleet (diesel truck) products up to and including the CI-4 API rating (the S and C prefixed letter codes are for Spark and Compression-ignited engines, respectively; many products, especially mixed-fleet products, bear ratings in both categories). Unfortunately, the requirements for the use of new low-sulphur diesel fuels and the expensive particulate filters they are required to use also resulted in C-rated oils having their Z and P levels also brought below 10ppm, with the advent of the new CJ-4 and CJ-4+ ratings.

So, for the oil shopper, look at the API starburst seal. If you read SM an/or CJ-4 on the label, the product lacks the antiwear protection needed for flat-tappet engines.

Both 1.9 and 2.1 wbx's, as well as all VW boxer motors ever made, are flat-tappet engines, regardless of whether they have solid or hydraulic lifters.

I use the term "flat-tappet", when what they really mean is "2-valves per cylinder". Some have rollers, but many of the newer motors also still use flat-tappets, in that the portion of the lifter that contacts the camshaft is "flat" (actually, it is ever-so-slightly domed, but it looks flat). What makes the difference is the switch to 4 or more valves per cylinder. More and smaller valves means that each individual valve and the components that open it are much lighter in weight. Most newer motors are also of overhead-cam design which also dramtically lightens total valvetrain reciprocating mass. Less reciprocating component weight means that as strong a spring isn't needed to over come valvetrain inertia and keep the tappet tracking the cam at high rpms. A lighter spring means less average pressure at the lifter/cam interface, which is the primary area where ZDDP offered protection of the component surfaces if and when they came into direct contact in the case of oil film failure (it does come into play in other motor bearings when oil film is insufficient, but is particularly important where surfaces slide against each other).

Logic would suggest that, with heavier hydraulic lifters like the wbx and late Type4's have, that spring pressures are commensurately heavier, and EP protection is even more important. In fact, these motors got dual valve springs due to their heavier hydraulic lifters.

Here's the ironic part: the ZDDP provides no protection whatsoever so long as the lubricant film is present; only when the film fails does the zinc instantly precipitate out of solution and briefly coat the parts as they rub against each other due to the lack of lubrication. It is activated by friction, and then protects against it. It gets used up as this happens so the measurable concentration in the oil goes down with use. The rest of the time it is just present in the circulating oil waiting to do its job. And it's the Z in ZDDP that does the job; as far as I know, the P doesn't do anything except constitute part of the friction-reactive molecule that carries the Z. But allowable ZDDP levels were lowered to reduce the P in the exhaust stream, which over time is known to erode catalysts. So, to get rid of too much P and protect catalysts, we sacrificed Z which protects highly-stressed engine components. And we all know that our catalysts go a good long time, even with P in the exhaust, and are pretty inexpensive and easy to replace when they wear out, while our camshafts last several times longer if they have ZDDP protection, but are very expensive to replace. They will need to be replaced much more often without that extreme pressure protection. Seems a fools bargain to me, and if every driver had to make this tradeoff, it would be hard not to disagree with EPA's reasoning. However, for the fleets of cars and trucks being built in the last 15 years, the drop in allowable levels is not expected to increase wear due to the lightweight valvetrain designs, so for the mass of drivers its basically a good idea, if it helps reduce pollution.

If I were considering using ZDDP PLus, or any other anti-wear additive product, I would first consult the good work of Charles Navarro at L N Engineering, to see what his testing has shown regarding the reactions or potential reactions with any of those products when combined with the additive packge in various oil products. The additive chemistry in lubrication products is synergistic, meaning things do their jobs when they are in the correct balance with each other. Adding extra of a good thing can often cause reactions that diminish the protection offered by something else.

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

Pay them a visit, and if you take something useful away from the site, considering offering Charles a donation or at least copious thanks for the very good work he's done to bring light to this important topic so often cloaked in darkness and superstition. He conducts his testing out of his own pocket and on his own time, and does an absolutely terrific job.

What oil do I use? I bought about a dozen gallons of Shell Rotella 5w40 synth, which has the CI-4 and SL (pre-SM) ratings. About $16/gallon at Walmart. That should be enough to keep my rigs lubed for a few years, so I can put off having to find something suitable for that much longer. I don't recommend using a 5-weight base oil like this unless you have thermostatically-controlled auxiliary oil cooling.
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