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Herr Motorspiele
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Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 458
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 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: 16" AT Italia S5? or 225/70R14? |
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Hey folks,
Still on the hunt for the right (cheap) wheel for my Syncro.  Came across a great deal locally on the AT Italia S5 16x7? ET 35 and need some info. I've searched and found some posts but quite what I'm looking for. Will I either have to machine out the centers, or run spacers? With spacers do I have to have longer studs? Also, I thought the centers weren't as crucial as with a 2wd due to the lack of a grease cap on Syncro's. BTW it's an '86 Wolfsburg. Anyone with experience running these? I know some folks sell them already machined but I've heard all sorts of stories about fitment. I've also tried the tire rack route and they don't want to reveal too much about the specs.
I also found another possible tire option but I'm wondering if it's a little too big for 14" alloys. It's this one: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Dueler+A%2FT+D693
All the specs seem to match up: 1612 lbs, 6-7.5" rim width. Anyone tried these?
Thanks in advance. |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5549
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
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I have never personally installed a set of these, but based on my experience with similar wheels and the research that I have done on wheels in general, I can tell you a few things about them.
First off, those wheels are only sold with 57.1mm centerbore (in a 5x112 bolt pattern). Even though the Syncro does not have the long greasecap/hub snout to deal with, it does have a rather large centerbore requirement. The Syncro hub has a 67.084mm diameter lip, but the lip of the hub is tapered slightly and can usually accomodate a wheel that has a 66.56mm centerbore (Mercedes).
The AT Italia S5 16x7s that SmallCar are selling have had the centerbores machined larger by SmallCar themselves (supposedly).
A 16x7 ET35 wheel will bolt onto a Syncro without spacers. Depending on the design of the lug seat of the particular wheel in question, you may or may not need to install longer wheel studs. As far as these AT S5s, if I'm not mistaken, they should use a cone seat lug. Cone seat lugs usually allow a few more turns on the threads of the wheel stud over a ball seat lug. If the cross section of the wheel from the base of the lug seat to the mounting face of the wheel is 8mm or so, you should be okay with the stock length studs. Just to be sure, you will want an absolute minimum of 7.5 turns (12mm of thread engagement) of the lug.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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syncrodoka
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Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12416
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| I like that A/T italia rim. If you decide to not buy the rims can you please send me the contact info. |
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Herr Motorspiele
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Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 458
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Loogy.
One guy I talked to suggested spacers or machining. If I went the spacer route that would increase the offset correct? (ET40/45 = bad) Isn't that why the 16"x6.5" version with ET16 is preferred since a spacer (~15mm) brings it right around ET30?
So far I think enlarging the centerbore may be a better option for these particular wheels but the spacer method would probably end up being easier/cheaper? 
Since they're from an Audi they should already be 14mm lug holes right? I think they are conical so hopefully no new studs to install if no spacer is used. |
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PDXWesty
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Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6344
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I've had Dueller AT now on three different trucks. I think they wore really fast and I wasn't happy with them for the price. I might try General Grabbers. They're real similar to BFG for half the price. The BFG's last a long time and I've been happy with those. |
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Herr Motorspiele
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Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 458
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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I like the Grabbers, and you can't beat the price! I haven't been able to find them locally though.
Right now I'm seriously considering the 16" S5's, which are local. 
Just gotta figure out the machining/spacing issue. |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5549
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Herr Motorspiele wrote: |
One guy I talked to suggested spacers or machining. If I went the spacer route that would increase the offset correct? (ET40/45 = bad) Isn't that why the 16"x6.5" version with ET16 is preferred since a spacer (~15mm) brings it right around ET30? |
I'm not sure exactly where the guy that suggested that is coming from, but what he could be refering to is the fact that Syncro's have a really short hub snout/lip (as opposed to the 2wd which has a really long one). The Syncro hub snout stands proud of the wheel mounting surface by about 8-10mm. If you were to run a 8-10mm spacer on a Syncro, you would effectively be eliminating the hub snout/lip, essentially eliminating the need to have the centerbores enlarged. Sounds like a great solution, huh? Well, there are some downsides to this.
You would need to start with a wheel that has enough offset to allow you to add the spacers without getting the effective offset too far out from the recommended range (30-35mm). For example, if you start with a wheel that has a 35mm offset and add a 10mm spacer, you now have a wheel that has an effective offset of 25mm. In my opinion, thats getting right towards the end of my comfort zone when refering to the recommended offset. However, if you started with a wheel that has a 40mm offset and add a 10mm spacer, you now have a wheel that sits right at the recommended offset (30mm).
Another issue is that as you add these spacers, you will need to replace your wheel studs with longer ones which, on a Syncro, means that you will have to replace your front wheel bearings, as they get destroyed during the removal process. Add all of this to the cost of the spacers and you may as well get the wheel machined for a larger centerbore.
Offset can be a little hard to understand. Zero offset would mean that the wheel to hub mounting surface is exactly inline with the centerline of the wheel rim. When talking about Vanagons, we are talking in terms of "positive offset". This means that more offset moves the wheels inboard and less offset moves the wheels outboard. Starting at zero offset, moving the wheel inboard by 35mm would give you a 35mm offset or ET35. If you start out with a wheel that has a 45mm offset and add a 15mm spacer, you have now effectively changed the offset of the wheel to 30mm because you have moved the wheel outboard by the thickness of the spacer, 15mm in this example. Try picturing the wheel rim moving inboard and outboard while the mounting surface stay the same. Here is a visual example:
| Herr Motorspiele wrote: |
| So far I think enlarging the centerbore may be a better option for these particular wheels but the spacer method would probably end up being easier/cheaper? |
In my opinion, machining the centerbore out to 67mm is the best option for these wheels (Syncros have a tapered snout that starts out at 67.084mm and gets smaller. The taper is enough to allow for a 66.56mm centerbore as long as it has a decent chamfer. Taking it out to 67mm ensures that you will have plenty of clearance).
See above for the cost issues.
| Herr Motorspiele wrote: |
| Since they're from an Audi they should already be 14mm lug holes right? I think they are conical so hopefully no new studs to install if no spacer is used. |
The lug holes will in fact be large enough for a 14mm wheel stud. I think you are correct in assuming that the lugs are conical. This should give you enough turns on the threads (7.5 minimum) so that new studs won't be needed as long as you don't run spacers, just as you said.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Herr Motorspiele
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Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 458
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Loogy, you rock.
From what I read, ET35 with bigger centers is going to be a better option so I took the plunge and plan to pick up the S5's on Sunday.
We'll see what happens, I'm pretty stoked. 
I've got a couple estimates so far from local machinists. One guy who does work specifically for a wheel shop said $15 per wheel. 
I thought that was pretty fair but he's over an hour away which means two seperate trips.
As a typical machinist he wants detailed specs so I'd appreciate anyone out there with experience to chime in with suggestions. Depth of taper, etc. I may be able to tell once they're in front of me though.
Another guy said bring them in and he'd have to see them but it shouldn't be too expensive.
Now a reason for bigger brakes.  |
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Herr Motorspiele
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Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 458
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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I know it's been a while since I updated on this post so here's the latest:
I did end up buying the wheels and have been test fitting them in the garage while working on some other tasks higher on the priority list. After getting the run around with some local machine shops I finally found an "old school" hot rod speed shop that has experience machining wheels. He said he'd have them ready in a week so I hope to post some pics once everything's back together. |
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Herr Motorspiele
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gator70
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Joined: April 02, 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I have 4 of these for sale |
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gator70
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Posts: 63
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| bump |
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cloudbaseracer
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Joined: September 29, 2005
Posts: 154
Location: Dalton, GA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| gator70 wrote: |
| I have 4 of these for sale |
What are you selling specifically and price? |
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gator70
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Joined: April 02, 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| $120 ea |
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cloudbaseracer
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Joined: September 29, 2005
Posts: 154
Location: Dalton, GA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: |
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WHAT are you selling? Is is so hard to communicate with complete information? Do you have pictures? |
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gator70
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Posts: 63
Location: Santa Cruz
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Herr Motorspiele
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Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 458
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hey that's my van!
Gator,
PM sent. |
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