79 CA Bus with FI | Won't Start

[Silverboot]

Not really sure where to start trouble shooting this one. I will try to be as detailed as possible, so please bear with me.

I was slowly rolling towards the gate to my neighborhood, going maybe 5mph with the clutch in and in 1st gear, slowly start releasing the clutch to go, and the everything immediately turns off. Push in the clutch, coast to the side of the main street, and try to start the bus 3 -5 times in short 5 second intervals. Nothing.

Turn the key to the on position, and push her to a side road. Hop back in to try to start her again, and when i push in the clutch without touching the key still in the on position, the engine tries to start turning over. I can't remember if I turned the key to the off position and then let out the clutch or the other way around, but now i can't turn the key into any position.

I looked in the Bentley's Starting System Troubleshooting, but wasn't sure what to do since i currently can't get the key into the start position. The lights do turn on.

Thanks in advance.
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79 FI CA Riviera
74 Smallframe Vespa

[Wasted youth]

Well. That's all very interesting.

Have you verified the clutch cable has not somehow acted as a current-carrying wire?

Stick your nose down by the ignition switch. Do you smell burnt wiring?

Have you tried to energize the starter solenoid with a remote button or otherwise?

Have you verified that your transmission ground strap and your battery negative cable are clean and tight?

[Wildthings]

I wouldn't leave the negative cable attached to the battery when you are not around until you figure this out. You don't want an electrical fire that burns your van up. Note that the main supply wire from the battery to the fuse box and ignition switch is not fused and thus a short can easily do a lot of damage.

[Silverboot]

I did not really know where to start, so I haven't really done anything yet, other than push the beast home.

Colin was just here a few weeks ago, and the bus has been running very strongly since his visit, so I feel I can rule out a few of the questions posed.

[Silverboot]

thanks Wildthings, i will remove it first thing tomorrow morning.
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79 FI CA Riviera
74 Smallframe Vespa

[Abscate]

[curtp07]

Buy yourself a battery disconnect terminal.

They disconnect the battery with a simple twist...you don't have to totally disconnect it like a similar looking product...

The one you have to pull apart is a pain. The one that is a quick twist of the top know is awesome.

I like to disconnect the battery when I'm sleeping in the vehicle.
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Subaru

[onion456]

your clutch cable is completing a circuit- not good. Here's what i would do:

Trace the clutch cable from the front of the car all the way to the transmission. Look for any wires crossing over the cable, inspect them for damaged insulation. most likely spot for trouble would be near the trans, but i would drop the front pan and inspect the pedal assembly area- i dont remember if the clutch pedal enters under the pan, i think it does? look for smashed wires near the pedal.

remove the ground strap at the transmission- clean it, clean the spots on the trans and the frame where it connects. you want bright shiny metal. reinstall the strap after everything is clean. this is to make sure current uses the ground strap and not your clutch cable.

your ignition switch sounds like it might be fried. Remove the plug with wires that go directly underneath the ignition switch. inspect, look for melted insulation on the wires or melted connector. The electrical portion of the ignition switch is held in by a screw on the underside. Remove the screw, remove the electrical switch. see if you can turn it easily with a screwdriver. It should function just like when you use the key- 90 degrees clockwise to 'on' position, and a spring loaded 'start' position. With the switch removed, see if you can now turn the key. Of course, make sure your steering column lock isnt preventing the key turn, i.e. turn the wheel if you have to.

should take all of 20 minutes =) let us know what you find!
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'76 Sage Green Westy 2.0 FI
'76 Creamsicle 7-passenger 2.0 CS FI
'85 Tan Westy

[busdaddy]

I wonder if the harness between the double relay and starter is sitting on the clutch cable?, wouldn't explain the melted ignition switch, but may have something to do with the dying and self actuating starter.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

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[Wasted youth]

The ignition switch is separate from the ignition keyed lock, and the switch is plugged into the wiring harness. Make sure the plug to the switch is tight, and the connection is clean.

Accessing the keyed lock and ignition switch:

The switch:

[Silverboot]

[Tcash]

i currently can't get the key into the start position.
Turn the steering wheel clockwise and then counter clockwise while trying to turn the key. The steering wheel lock may be stuck.
If not the ignition switch may be broken and jamming the lock cylinder.

slowly start releasing the clutch to go, and the everything immediately turns off.
This is a bad ground connection. The clutch cable is conpleting the ground circuit to the battery.
As suggested clean the Trans ground strap and both battery cable connections.
As BD would say nice and shiny.
Warning: Set the hand brake and put the bus in neutral. Be sure you are clear of any turning parts when you reconnect the battery ground cable. The engine may start cranking right away.

when i push in the clutch without touching the key still in the on position, the engine tries to start turning over.
Two things.
We talked about the clutch cable.
The Ignition switch is bad or the Bendix in the starter is stuck in the crank position.
See warning above.
With the key in the off position, connect the battery ground cable. If it starts cranking. Disconnect the ground cable. Go under the bus and hit the starter with a block of wood. Connect the batt cable again, no cranking the starter bendix is hanging up.
Turn the key to the on position and wiggle the key. If it cranks the ignition switch is bad.

Good luck
Tcash

[Silverboot]

thank you everyone, super useful ideas to get her back on the road. i will keep y'all posted. Eager to get off of work to dig in.
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79 FI CA Riviera
74 Smallframe Vespa

[Silverboot]

got home from work with less daylight than i had hoped for, so i didn't really get to do much. I went ahead and cleaned the positive and negative cables to the battery since i already had them disconnected.

In the bummer department, I spun the wheel clockwise and counter clockwise while attempting to turn the key, and it still would not budge, so it would seem that i will need to get ahold of a new ignition switch.

Quick question, is this all that i would need to get this turning freely?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1966306
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79 FI CA Riviera
74 Smallframe Vespa

[Wasted youth]

That classified ad is somewhat misleading. That is NOT the ignition switch. That is the keyed lock. The switch is actually a plastic module that the lock indexes into. See my pictures? The white thingy is a view from the bottom of the actual switch... where the wiring harness plugs in.

I did not take a picture of the top of the switch.

The first picture is of the keyed lock installed in the steering column. The white module cannot be seen, because it is held captive inside the pot-metal housing that you can see in the second photo.

So... to answer your question: Maybe! If your keyed lock is actually what is causing you problems, then yes... the classified ad piece could go a long way to solving your problem.

But! If the actual problem is a melted down ignition switch that prevents normal movement, then no... that new lock won't help at all. You will need to get a new switch. (bottom photo)

[Silverboot]

thanks for the clarification, i will wait to dig in there before spending money. The key definitely won't turn, so something is jacked.
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79 FI CA Riviera
74 Smallframe Vespa

[Silverboot]

So I finally had a chance to dig into this a bit last night.

Turn the steering wheel clockwise and then counter clockwise while trying to turn the key. The steering wheel lock may be stuck.
If not the ignition switch may be broken and jamming the lock cylinder.

i still could not get the key to turn. It did seem tighter than i remember it. Like the mechanism held the key tighter and released with an audible click. if that makes sense.

This is a bad ground connection. The clutch cable is conpleting the ground circuit to the battery. As suggested clean the Trans ground strap and both battery cable connections.

Done, nice and shiny

I traced the cable wire from front to back, and did not see anything that looked to touching it to complete the ground.

Next order of business is to pull the steering wheel and see what is happening in the column. I would be lying if i said i wasn't nervous about this endeavor.

I did take 2 quick picks of the starter while i was under there. The wires definitely look pretty beat, and there is a terminal with no wire.

Thanks again for everyone's help.
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79 FI CA Riviera
74 Smallframe Vespa

[Tcash]

thnx mayor ratwell
http://www.ratwell.com/mirror/bclausen/How_to_files/IgnSw/

these are related to the horn but include some more pix
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?...rch_forum[
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=288362

Steering wheel removal - tutorial (1971 bus)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...mp;start=0

Good Luck
Tcash

[Chochobeef]

[Silverboot]

alright folks, got the steering column torn down, and it was a melted ignition switch. Hit up the local ACVW shop, and picked up a new one, and have everything back together again. I can now turn key into all positions.

I have NOT hooked the battery back up. Where do i turn now to figure out why the ignition switch melted? I feel like I already know the answer looking at the wires coming out of that starter, but is there anywhere else to look as well?
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79 FI CA Riviera
74 Smallframe Vespa