Fuel Injection Conversion

[Chris in Santa Cruz, CA]

So, I have a complete 2.0L FI system from a 1978 Bus which was on an engine I built. I also have the heads and the case for this engine.

I also got a 1935cc engine in my Thing when I got it and have since put a correct used 1600 into it. Question is, can I use the FI stuff I have to convert the 1935cc engine? It came with Kadrons but it also may have a more radical cam in it. I know the FI likes a stock cam so I could replace it.

[crofty]

This a better question for the engine forums
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Your Vanagon sucks, Stop waving at me.

[Ian Epperson]

Agree with Crofty.

I think the hardest part would be fitting all the FI bits in the engine compartment. Don't the stock FI setups require an air box?

Anyway, I've seen pics of FI setups on a Thing. I'm sure it all depends on the kit. One day, I'm hoping to use a CB Performance kit to go FI.
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VW-181 shirts and stickers.
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[mondshine]

My '74 has had CIS fuel injection for over 10 years.
It's a 74x88 type 1 and has excellent drivability and power.
When I start driving it in Spring, sometimes I clean the injectors in an ultrasonic cleaner; otherwise, other than an occasional filter, it's almost a zero maintenance item.

Good luck, Mondshine

[Chris in Santa Cruz, CA]

That is an enticing looking conversion....nice job. I think I saw your write up in the engine forum as well. Really nice looking conversion.

[alex77]

I agree. nice conversion.

do you have the part list that you use for this conversion
and was it hard to wire it

what throtle body are you using
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91 mexibeetle

[75FrankenBeetle]

I ran CIS on my 73 for years of trouble free driving until I went with a 2056cc Type IV. I think I still have most of the pieces including the dual port intakes with the injector bosses if someone wants to give it a go. Mondshine will agree that it revs very quickly-near instant throttle response!
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to
take away everything you have." ........ Thomas Jefferson

1973 TYPE 181 2056cc TYPE IV
1964 Chevrolet C10 LS3/TR6060 6-Speed
1979 1303 Convertible 2056cc TYPE IV-SOLD!

[75FrankenBeetle]

I ran CIS on my 73 for years of trouble free driving until I went with a 2056cc Type IV. I think I still have most of the pieces including the dual port intakes with the injector bosses if someone wants to give it a go. Mondshine will agree that it revs very quickly-near instant throttle response!
_________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to
take away everything you have." ........ Thomas Jefferson

1973 TYPE 181 2056cc TYPE IV
1964 Chevrolet C10 LS3/TR6060 6-Speed
1979 1303 Convertible 2056cc TYPE IV-SOLD!

[mondshine]

The CIS conversion was pretty easy in my Thing because the engine compartment is so roomy compared with that of a Beetle.
All of the parts are from a fuel injected Beetle and an early Rabbit.
The Beetle parts consist of:
The intake runners (with CIS injector bungs welded in place), the intake plenum, the throttle body & linkage, and the fan housing.
The Rabbit parts consist of:
The fuel meter & air filter housing, the fuel pressure accumulator, the fuel filter, the injectors, the cold start valve, the auxiliary air regulator, the control pressure regulator, and the thermo/time switch.
The fuel hoses and air intake duct were fabricated.
I added some call-outs to the photos so you can see what's going on.
You can click on the individual photos for a better look.

1 & 2 is the fuel meter & air filter housing, 3 is the intake duct, 4 is the accumulator, 5 is the filter, 6 is the aux air regulator, 7 is the bracket for the cruise control throttle cable, 8 is the cold start valve, 9 is the intake plenum, 10 is the bracket for the throttle return spring, 11 is the thermo/time switch, 12 is the oil filter, 13 is the control pressure regulator (mounted to a bracket which is welded to the oil thermostat housing which is 14), 15 is the CD ignition box, 16 is a check valve for the Accusump, 17 is a thermo switch for the oil cooler fan, 18 is a vacuum reservoir for the cruise control, 19 is the fuel pump relay, 20 is the relay for the oil cooler fan, 21 is a fuse panel for the oil cooler fan, fuel pump, backup lights, and cruise control, 22 is the tach adapter for the CD ignition box, and 23 are the injectors for 1 & 2.
The last photo is the wiring diagram.

It certainly is a cluttered mess in there, but everything works, and it's very reliable.

I would consider converting my daily driven Beetle, but I've never seen it done in the tight confines of a Beetle engine compartment.

I hope somebody found this long post interesting, Mondshine

[alex77]

you can do this on a beetle the thing is that the airbox takes a los of space but you can use a volvo fuel meter like this one

[/img]
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91 mexibeetle

[mondshine]

Alex-
Do you have any photos of the system installed?
Mondshine

[oasis]

mondshine, that is very impressive. My guess from 75FrankenBeetle's response is he did not favor the CIS for a Type IV conversion. What Type I engine sizes would favor this very nice set-up?

I had a 2056 with Dell's in my dearly departed Super. I really liked the Type IV conversion. I considered a 912E with a 2056 and SDS but the seller was constantly tweaking it and I am now spooked by that system. I would prefer FI to carbs if reliable. If I go Type I in my next venture (a Thing is in that top three), I would consider a 2110.

Any pointing in the right direction(s) would be appreciated. I hope I didn't derail mondshine's question to alex77.

(Nice Man/Girl From UNCLE avatar, too!)
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Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI

[alex77]

[mondshine]

Oasis-
This system was originally installed on a stock 1600. It is currently installed on a 74 stroke x 88 bore which is about 1800 cc.
I am not sure what the upper displacement limits are with a CIS fuel meter from a Rabbit, but these systems were used on many cars of various displacements, and I would try to match the system based on that.

If you buy these parts at a junkyard, try hard to get the entire system from the same car. You probably won't use the fuel lines, but don't choose a system without them. You don't want a system with the fuel meter sitting unsealed out in the elements, and you might need the hose ends to fabricate your own lines.

Alex-
One key to success is to rigidly mount the fuel meter.
On the Thing, the bracket looks like this:

It's attached to the right side air filter bracket, two of the right side air intake box screws, and to the lower left stud of the right taillight.

I don't know how you plan to do this in the much smaller Beetle engine compartment, but I'd like to see photos when you've done it.
Good luck, Mondshine

[oasis]

[alex77]

Thanks mondshine

Il try to post pics when i start the conversion
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91 mexibeetle

[alex77]

Hey moonshine

I went to the local junk yard to get a few parts for the conversion
and the late model golf, jetta, cabrio,fox have the warm up regulator on the fuel meter & air filter housing and not on the engine block so using the lower part of the volvo fuel meter you save a lot of space for the beetle conversion

Heres a pic of the one i'm gonna get for the thing and beetle conversion

BTW what fuel pump are U using???

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91 mexibeetle

[mondshine]

Alex-
The fuel meter you show looks like one from CIS-E, a late version which uses electronic control to vary the differential pressure rather than a control pressure regulator to vary the control pressure during warm-up.

When I installed fuel injection on my Thing 10 or 12 years ago, there were considerably fewer options than today.
I chose CIS Basic because it is purely mechanical. It does not depend on sensors or electronics to function. That said, it does a pretty good job of metering fuel based on the engine's needs, and reliability and drivability are excellent.
CIS-Lambda, and then CIS-E are later versions with increasing dependency on electronics to meter fuel more accurately than the basic system ever could.

If that is your goal, I would seriously consider abandoning CIS, and use the latest Mexican fuel injection components, possibly controlled by a Megasquirt brain. All of the component parts from the air filter to the injectors have been engineered to work on an upright type 1 engine.
It would be a much easier fit, especially in a Beetle.
There are hundreds of posts by guys using systems like this, with trigger wheels on the crank pulley, coil on plug, custom fuel and ignition maps, etc., etc.
There is no limit except your own creativity and cash.

Before you take the leap, do some reading.
Check the shop talk forum fuel injection pages:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=23&sid=ac7c4d3e0a6b9afe438cceacac0254fd
Buy some books, and study.
The more time you spend learning and planning, the less time and money you will waste.
Besides a project like this is best done in the Winter. That way, there's no rush, and you don't want to rush this.

Good luck, Mondshine

[alex77]

on the thing i,m gonna put the cis basic
and on the beetle gonna go whit the cis-e because there's a lot of parts on the junk yard and for the limited space on the engine compartment
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91 mexibeetle

[mondshine]

Well just be careful Alex-
I still think you'll be hard pressed to fit it all into a Beetle engine compartment.
Those CIS-E components are somewhat matched, so get as much as you can from the same car; pump, relays, brain, o2 sensor, etc. You won't be able to use the pump that's inside the tank, you'll have to come up with something for that.

Here's a link to an article I did many many years ago.

http://www.stits.org/DMCVEGAS%20DMC%20Archives/archive/Misc./General%20Automotive/CIS%20Thing.pdf

Most of the system has changed; as you will see in the photos, as compared to those I posted earlier in this thread. Some of the install details might be useful.

Good luck, Mondshine