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Replacing the Final Drive to Automatic Trans Seals
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djkeev Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject: Replacing the Final Drive to Automatic Trans Seals Reply with quote

Replacing the.....
Automatic Transmission Differential Seal PN 089.409.529D

These are the two seals placed back to back between the Differential and Automatic Transmission.

These seals prevent the ATF from mixing with the gear oil. When they fail the ATF fluid level increases and begins to take on the horrible gear oil smell.

You will need two new seals...... 089.409.529D
Final Drive to Automatic Seals ..... VC.ATSEALS (VanCafe)
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And replacement oil for the Final Drive and the Auto Trans.
This may mean new pan gaskets too but that's up to you.

Remove the Transaxle assembly from the Van.
Drain the fluids.
The entire assembly is heavy, each separate assembly is still heavy so enlist a strong helper or do as I did and use my engine hoist.

I stood the assembly engine end up in a Milk Crate. I blocked the unit so as not to tip over.
The chain around the bell housing helped for sure! ......

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The two units are held together with just four (4) 13mm nuts with washers under each nut.
Remove the four nuts and washers........

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Once the nuts were removed I raised the Final drive assembly but the Auto trans held fast to it.

Having read about doing this I knew that there was a large ORing around the circumference of the final drive unit.
Here is a photo showing the ORing and the corrosion that I needed to break free.......

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I took a block of wood and a hammer and while the unit hung a half inch or so I tapped around the final drive allowing gravity to help separate the two.
It did........

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Here is the final drive without the Auto Trans.......

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I put the final drive unit on a bench so I could work on it.

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You can see the nose cone that supports the shaft, it is held on with five 13mm head bolts.....

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A close up of the seals......

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While the seals can be dug out in place, I chose to remove the housing and replace them in a more rational manner......

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Here are photos of the housing showing the two seals in place. They are installed outside face to outside face........

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The old seals......

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly my FLAPS sold me two of these...... Manual Transmission input shaft seals!!

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I try to shop local but sometimes...... Grrrr.......

Anyway, placed an order for them (and several other items) with VanCafe..... Normally 36 hours to my doorstep here in NJ via US Mail.

Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO the pinion shaft seal and the governor shaft seal need to be done at the same interval as the seals you are replacing. They too separate the fluids in the two boxes. The pinion shaft seal is a bit more involved to replace as the final drive has to be totally torn down to get to it, while the governor shaft seal can just be a bit of a pain to deal with
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Merian
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very useful thread

but don't you also need that O-ring? you aren't going to reuse it are you?

and I didn't see it in the pic...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
IMO the pinion shaft seal and the governor shaft seal need to be done at the same interval as the seals you are replacing. They too separate the fluids in the two boxes. The pinion shaft seal is a bit more involved to replace as the final drive has to be totally torn down to get to it, while the governor shaft seal can just be a bit of a pain to deal with


Should have talked to YOU before I Began I guess. Laughing
I've ONLY ever read about these two shaft seals as being the guilty parties to oil exchange taking place.


I must confess, I do not fully understand the role of the governor mounted on the Final Drive housing.... Embarassed

I also don't see why I need to remove the metal plate and replace the paper gasket under it either....... Photo 4 item 49 ?

Then again, I Often fix things without possessing a full understanding of how they work, though I really try to grasp the concept whenever possible.


Oh well...... On this go around, just the two shaft seals will be renewed. No time for deeper surgery right now.

A few photos...... What seals do you speak of ??
I don't see one for a Governor shaft.......
Pinion shaft seal? ........

Photo 1.....
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Photo2......
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Photo 3......
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Photo 4.....
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Photo 5....
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Photo 6.....
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The seals under bearing cap, the two ORings?

O rings..... 78 x 3 and 6 x 2 under the bearing cap.

Dave
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The governor shaft seal is #5 in the next to last drawing and the pinion shaft seal is #1 in the last drawing.

I assume you know about the torque converter seal?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

great photos and info... thanks!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave, how do those old seals feel? Is the rubber still pliable or hard as a rock? I don't see any cracks in the photos. Just curious as to what would cause them to fail if they are visibly ok.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also don't see why I need to remove the metal plate and replace the paper gasket under it either....... Photo 4 item 49 ?

I would replace the two paper gaskets..very easy to do. They do fail when they get old and you get the dreaded ATF/gear oil mix when the paper gaskets fail.

That pinion shaft seal (the one you have to take the entire diff apart to get to) very rarely give problems..knock on wood..the governor shaft seal can be a problem and is very fiddly to replace.

The two back to back seals absolutely should be replaced..a known weak area in the 010 transmission/transaxle. Replace the paper gaskets and "O" rings.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave
What about the 14mm seal on the shifter lever? I noticed mine was leaking there. Not much, but it may be easy to do at this point.

I like how you attack stuff, true meaning of Get Her Done!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The shifter shaft has some "O" rings in it. (at least one maybe two) The "O" ring(s) go inside some machined grooves in the shaft. I think there is one more "O"ring on the outside under the shift lever too..it sits between the shifter lever and the transmission case.

To get to the shifter shaft and replace the "O" rings that ride inside the shifter shaft grooves requires pulling the valve body and removing a big (17mm I think) nut that holds the shifter shaft/shifter selector inside the transmission. Then you can pull the shifter shaft and replace the "O" rings.

You could just take the exterior shfter lever off on the outside of the transmission and replace the "O" ring that lives behind it. It may not work very well but worth a try. I recall it just sits there and may be only there to keep water and debis out of the transmission case..not stop ATF from leaking. .
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Merian
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the Auto Trans. is replaced, is it common to renew these seals?

I have a service receipt from a PO that says my A/T was replaced in 2002 with a rebuilt unit about 45,000 miles ago by Royal Auto Service in Portland, OR.

Here is the parts list:
1 N 900 784 01 O-RING SEAL 3.95
1 038 117 070 A O-RING SEAL 5.75
1 25255 / 25230 AUTOMATIC/FINAL REBUILT 2495.00

I don't know where Royal got the rebuilt trans. from, so am trying to guess as to whether the suspect seals were replaced. Having a shop R&R the thing for seals doesn't look cheap, and it's a pretty big job for me and my floor jack...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think for $2500 would be a refreshed unit with new seals/frictions/pistons and gaskets..you would hope so in that would still be a steep price without a full rebuild.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the entire transaxle was serviced then the seals would have been replaced at that time, while if just the auto section was rebuilt, the seals (particularly the harder to access ones) may not have been replaced.

FWIW, I have ended up dead on the road once when the governor seal failed and once when the pinion shaft seal failed. Neither failure was due to wear though, but due to SNAFU's on the part of the guy(s) who installed the seals.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dart330 wrote:
Dave, how do those old seals feel? Is the rubber still pliable or hard as a rock? I don't see any cracks in the photos. Just curious as to what would cause them to fail if they are visibly ok.


The old seals are not dry, by comparison the throttle body seals I Removed last week were absolutely rock hard, these seals still have a pliable nature but I would describe them as "rough".
If you slide your finger around the lip you can feel a roughness to them, not yet cracked and dry but beginning to be so.
Being drenched with oils probably prolonged their life.

I only wish I had more knowledge about this task before I began this seal replacement journey........ hopefully those who follow will be better informed.

This thread has been an eye opener for me. Sadly, Because Of my time frame I Will only install the New back to back shaft seals and reassemble. I will be tackling the bigger reseal job on another day in the future after I've gone to California.

Again, what does the Transmission Governor do?

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:

Again, what does the Transmission Governor do?

Dave


It regulates the full throttle shift points.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And 32 hours later...... California to New Jersey........
My needed seals! Laughing

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merian wrote:
very useful thread

but don't you also need that O-ring? you aren't going to reuse it are you?

and I didn't see it in the pic...


Well Gee Thanks for putting that seed of doubt in MY brain!!!!

I was going to smear some silicone grease on the old seals and the reinstall.
But now? Just ordered some seals!
I Never ordered from them, I'll see how they ship! Hopefully QUICKLY!!!! VanCafe quick?

3mm x 78mm
2mm x 6mm
Buna-N 70 Metric ORing

http://www.sealanddesign.com/category/h/about/140.html

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zehr gut - old seals, even if not damaged on the sealing surface, are less flexible, and closer to falling apart

the only thing on a car that can last many decades is the unit body (only if steel and if kept protected from rust)

next are unstressed or low stressed suspension arms, again if steel

Al is next - can't retain integrity if flexed 100k times like steel can

Mg parts are in the immortal words of a very knowledgable Porsche person "like congealed butter"

rubber & plastic are temporary (6 years to about 30-40) and that includes the plastic covers on all your wiring

- feeling better now???
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As it turns out the Oring Store is in Idaho, has my Orings in stock and is shipping priority mail today.

Laughing

Dave
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