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Tswami
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: Troutville, VA
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 Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:54 pm Post subject: Front Brake help |
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Okay I have searched and searched and can't seem to find the info I'm looking for. I bought a rail and I need to add front brakes but I cant figure out what front end is on it. It doesn't have any brakes , just backing plates. The Transaxle is an AO code that should make it out of a 70+ ghia and the engine is a 1600 dp AS code making it a 74-79.
The front end is a King link pin front end but I don't know what from. If it was a ghia were the front spindles for the disc brake and drum brake versions the same? When did the ball joints show up on the ghia? Is there any way to determine what it came out of?
I am looking for a front disc conversion kit and there seem to be different ones depending on the years. As long as I get a link pin conversion kit does it matter? |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5572
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Link pin beams were used on passenger cars up until mid 1965 when they switched to the ball joint front end.
Out of curiosity, why disk brakes up front? What brakes do you have in the back? What kind of vehicle do you have?
Off road baja bugs and buggies do much better with the stronger brakes in the back, so unless you have good disks in the back, I wouldn't bother with disks up front. It can actually be dangerous. Powerful brakes up front will cause the front tires to lock up easily. If your tires aren't rolling, your steering wheel doesn't do you a lot of good. Trust me, losing the ability to point the car in the direction of your choice when trying to brake is not a fun experience. Unless you have a rather heavy vehicle, I always recommend sticking with drums up front and using the smaller 17mm rear wheel cylinders (stock front cylinders are 22mm). Using the smaller cylinders tones down the front brakes so they are not as powerful. It helps a lot in most cases. If you have 68 and newer four lug style drums in back, swap the 22mm front wheel cylinders in so that you have the bigger cylinders in the back. Big cylinders in the back, small cylinders in the front. More powerful brakes in the back, less powerful up front. 
Hope that helps ya out!
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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BUGGUTZ
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2007
Posts: 537
Location: Luzerne Mich
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ^^^^^^well put^^^^^^ My baja, drums up front disc in the rear. Gives some cool driving characteristics in loose conditions and works just fine in traffic. |
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Tswami
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: Troutville, VA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, did the Ghia with disc brakes only have ball joints? Seems the Ghia history is a little harder to get clear answers on.
Its a rail so its really light. I plan on doing disc brakes all the way around, but to get it on the street I have to throw some front brakes on it to get the street legal process rolling. It takes 4-6 weeks for the dmv to process the paperwork so i have to get stuff on and I can finish the work while I wait. Are 4 wheel discs all the way around a bad idea? I dont mind drums It just seems cheaper to go disc brakes than it does to source old used drum parts.
Still a bad idea? Is there an easier way to find cheap drums? Id rather not go junk yard pulling |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5572
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Tswami, as far as I konw, stock link pin spindles were only offered with drums. Easy way to tell if you have stock spindles is to compare pictures. The VW spindles are unique and easily distinguishable from aftermarket ones. Do your spindles look like this? If so, then you have stock link pin spindles.
| Tswami wrote: |
| Its a rail so its really light. I plan on doing disc brakes all the way around |
This sounds like trouble. On light buggies it is especially important to tune down the front brakes. I think it is time for a change of plan.
I have done this with friends in the past and it worked well. fortunately I did take a few pictures from my new project I'm working on. I think you might find them instructional. You might want to think about doing the same. I'll try to kinda walk you through what needs to be done.
You will need to have:
A matching L & R pair of '58-65 backing plates
2 x '58-65 brake drums
2 x spring kits
2 x adjuster nuts and stars
A set of brake shoes
2 x 68 and newer type 1 REAR wheel cylinders (17mm ATE, CiFam, and Varga are good ones to get).
2 x bearing spacers
2 x inner wheel bearings (Autozone distributes Timken products, but there are other good brands out there like FAG and SKF).
2 x Outer wheel bearings.
2 x oil seal
2 x dust cap
A bit of brake grease...it is important to use only grease made for brakes.
It sounds like an awful lot of stuff, but it isn't actually that bad once you break it down.
First, you have to find yourself some parts. Nobody makes aftermarket backing plates, so you must find your self a set of used ones. They need to be the 1958-'65 style. Try the classifieds, ebay, craigslist...whatever. I have actually had luck asking people trying to sell a drum to drum beam if they will part it out. If they have a complete beam to part out, take all of the brake stuff. If not, start piecing together what you need. This is what I Parted out. I took the backing plates, hardware, and the drums were even usable.
I ALWAYS recommend new oil seals. Most auto parts stores can order them. They only cost a couple bucks. I also tend to get new springs if they look pitted or worn out. Spring kits again only cost a few bucks at any auto parts store. Hint, if they don't have spring kits for the old link pin brakes, any 58 and newer model standard bug will have interchangeable springs. Just ask for a 72 bug kit or something. Front and back are also interchangeable...not always identical, but they fit and work just fine.
The next step is to completely disassemble everything you have, and clean the parts you are going to reuse. I started with my backing plates. I sprayed them down good and hard with brake cleaner, and shot them with some fresh paint.
Now, install new '68 and newer REAR wheel cylinders (17mm) onto the backing plates with M8x1.25 bolt and split lock-washer hardware.
Next up is installing the adjustors. Use a bit of anti-seize on them. You will be happy you did next time you need to adjust your brakes.
A note on adjustors. VW used two different types here. Early ones (stock in this case) have flat slots in them. The ends of the shoes are also flat. Over the years, many have been replaced with the newer style angled slots. If you have these newer style adjustors, you need to use the newer style brake shoes with one edge angled on them. The parts all all the same for all 66 and newer standard beetle front shoes.
Next, for sanities sake, I marked out which holes the springs went through. Note that not all brake shoes may have all of the exact same holes for reference, but they will all have the holes required for assembly. I put the wheel cylinder side return spring on first, then slipped the shoes over the wheel cylinder, and fit them into the adjuster slots. The springs are strong and this may take a bit of effort. If your adjustors are the newer style, make sure that the slot angle matches the angle of the brake shoe. Oh, and don't forget to add a slight dab of brake grease (ONLY brake grease) between all metal to metal friction points...so a dab between where the shoe hits rides the backing plate (try not to get brake grease on the shoe surface), and where the shoes meet the wheel cylinders/adjustors. This will keep squeaking down and keep friction down.
Then install the hold down nails, springs and cups that secure the shoes to the backing plate.
Install the return spring on the adjustor side...
That completes your backing plates.
The rest is relatively straight forward. Clean and pack your bearings, install the bearings on your new or good used drums, install the oil seal. When you instal the oil seal, use wheel bearing grease as lubricant. Sread a thin film of it around the outside edge, and then pack the area between the dust lip and the seal lip with grease. This allows it to install easy, and keeps the sealing edges from wearing down excessively from friction. Bolt down your backing plate with proper metric hardware. Make sure your spindle is clean and that the bearing spacer is installed. Slide your drum on and adjust the free play in the drum. Virtually all new replacement link pin drum bearings are tapered rollers, so adjust the free play the same way you would on the newer ball joint drums. Once that is set up nice, take a hammer and pound on your dust caps. They make these with and without a square hole for a speedo cable. If your not using a speedo cable, make sure you plug the hole both in the spindle, and on the dust cap. You can also use a passenger side dust cap on the drivers side if you don't have a speedo cable.
Unfortuenly I don't have any pictures of final assembly for you. I hope to get around to that project this summer. There are lots of good threads here on TheSamba that talk about brake drum play/preload. It isn't that complicated. You should be able to figure it out. I have a few other odds and ends pictures around with front brake parts. If I don't have a picture you are looking for, 100 other samba members probably do.
Ask if you have any other questions!
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Tswami
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: Troutville, VA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Thats quite the shopping list.
I am familiar with rebuilding setting up adjusting and bleeding brakes and will be building the whole brake system from scratch as there is nothing there at the moment except for rear drums. Again my only concern is the cost. The used parts are harder and more expensive to find than a disc kit.
Feel free to shoot me down but would 4 wheel discs with a proportioning valve biased towards the back not help cure some of those issue?
Here is a picture of my rail and the front end as it sits. Pictures aren't great but they are what I had.
Looks like I'm going to have a type 4 engine out back now so more weight on the rear.
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5572
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:52 am Post subject: |
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I have 100 in the used parts that I picked, 35 bucks into the pair of wheel cylinders, 15 into new shoes, and about 80 into the bearings and seals. That works out to about 230 bucks for the front brakes. That isn't any more expensive than a disk kit. Just something to think about.
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5572
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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From your pictures I can see that you have link pin drums that have been turned down into hubs. You can cross off the bearing spacers, bearings (assuming they are still be good), and the dust caps from your shopping list. Now you just need to find backing plates, drums, shoes, springs, oil seals, and wheel cylinders.
Bearings are usually good to go as long as they have been well lubricated. I bet you can reuse them as long as everything was sealed up well. That will take a good chunk of your cost out since high quality new bearings are kinda pricey.
I would stick with drums. For you it will be cheaper since you already have some of the stuff on hand.
Why fork over the cash for powerful brakes only to tune them down? Thats a waste of money.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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