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e85incallook
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2007
Posts: 26
Location: SouthCentral Kansas
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 Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: Latest with my EMPI problem... |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4wamopyEsU
Here is a video I created today. Not sure it will be as informative or convincing as the earlier youtube video. But... any help here? |
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'69Custom
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2008
Posts: 2497
Location: Ventura, California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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It was a great effort, although you might use a tripod next time to steady the camera.
F U EMPI!!
Or, for short, "FUMP!!!"
_________________
-Tim
1969 Frankenbug
1965 Ford Mustang
:2gunfire: F-U-M-P!
~"I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken." ~The Boss
Please excuse any typos as my iPhone doesn't speak English very well.
| tham64 wrote: |
Why tune a big round again and again????? For me.... 1 hour will solve the case  |
www.endlesscustomz.com |
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bondy.
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2009
Posts: 3
Location: bedfordshire,UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:38 am Post subject: |
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Ive just fitted a front empi kit with no problems at all. well chuffed with the kit for the money.
After reading peoples comments before i brought it i was expecting it too be a right ballache. |
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Motomazzo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2009
Posts: 792
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Latest with my EMPI problem... |
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Hey e85incallook,
Thanks for the video. I don't want to overstate what you already already know, but something is definately wrong if you can still rotate the front wheels with the brake fully applied....and it's not because you're running EMPI brakes. I was wondering if maybe you have a clog in either the caliper or the brake line at the caliper from manufacturing/shipping debris.....something like that. If you did, maybe that's why the line is flexing, but the piston isn't acutally moving?? You need to start over with the basics, going back over the complete system. I'd remove the front caliper, depress the piston using a c-clamp and a block of wood or something like that, and have a friend depress the pedal. Look to see that the piston is actually moving. Also, I suspect the reason your rear brake rotors are hard to turn even with the brake pedal NOT depressed may have something to do with the e-brake setup. Go back over that and make sure it's set up right. This is considering there weren't any rotation issues before your started this installation. Keep us posted. I'm getting real curious how my kit's going to do. I still have a ways to go before I get my master cylinder installed and my system checked out. What I've seen of the kit so far is definately on-par with the level of quality I would consider appropriate for a 43 year-old family sedan!! 
Last edited by Motomazzo on Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Motomazzo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2009
Posts: 792
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| bondy. wrote: |
Ive just fitted a front empi kit with no problems at all. well chuffed with the kit for the money.
After reading peoples comments before i brought it i was expecting it too be a right ballache. |
Hey Bondy,
Good to hear! Thank you for the post, letting us know. Say, help out an ignorant American here. What does "chuffed" mean in the U.K.?? |
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'69Custom
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2008
Posts: 2497
Location: Ventura, California
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: |
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I'm curious too, considering I got quite a chuckle from...
| bondy. wrote: |
| a right ballache. |
_________________
-Tim
1969 Frankenbug
1965 Ford Mustang
:2gunfire: F-U-M-P!
~"I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken." ~The Boss
Please excuse any typos as my iPhone doesn't speak English very well.
| tham64 wrote: |
| Why tune a big round again and again????? For me.... 1 hour will solve the case |
www.endlesscustomz.com |
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e85incallook
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2007
Posts: 26
Location: SouthCentral Kansas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Latest with my EMPI problem... |
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| Motomazzo wrote: |
Hey e85incallook,
Thanks for the video. I don't want to overstate what you already already know, but something is definately wrong if you can still rotate the front wheels with the brake fully applied....and it's not because you're running EMPI brakes. I was wondering if maybe you have a clog in either the caliper or the brake line at the caliper from manufacturing/shipping debris.....something like that. If you did, maybe that's why the line is flexing, but the piston isn't acutally moving?? You need to start over with the basics, going back over the complete system. I'd remove the front caliper, depress the piston using a c-clamp and a block of wood or something like that, and have a friend depress the pedal. Look to see that the piston is actually moving. Also, I suspect the reason your rear brake rotors are hard to turn even with the brake pedal NOT depressed may have something to do with the e-brake setup. Go back over that and make sure it's set up right. This is considering there weren't any rotation issues before your started this installation. Keep us posted. I'm getting real curious how my kit's going to do. I still have a ways to go before I get my master cylinder installed and my system checked out. What I've seen of the kit so far is definately on-par with the level of quality I would consider appropriate for a 43 year-old family sedan!! |
1) Front brakes are not shown in video and they do not have line flex. They're bleed volume is much lower than the rear. All lines were removed and blown.
2) Emergency brakes on back are adjusted to the farthest, loosest possible setting and still the rear wheels do not spin freely at all.
3) Can you speculate as to why the pedal is nearly reaching the floor before any brakes, rear only in this case, actually work enough to lock the rear wheels? Meanwhile, the fronts still spin, but not without resistance. Just not enough to stop the car.
Does this not sound like a Master Cylinder problem? Remember: Both front and rear are not experiencing same bleed volume. But the pedal is reaching the floor almost. And also, this is the Empi Master Cylinder required for the 4 wheel disc conversion. The pedal has been adjusted to both extreme settings. And all this by a professional mechanic with decades of VW only experience. Thanks |
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'69Custom
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2008
Posts: 2497
Location: Ventura, California
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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FUMP!
_________________
-Tim
1969 Frankenbug
1965 Ford Mustang
:2gunfire: F-U-M-P!
~"I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken." ~The Boss
Please excuse any typos as my iPhone doesn't speak English very well.
| tham64 wrote: |
| Why tune a big round again and again????? For me.... 1 hour will solve the case |
www.endlesscustomz.com |
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Motomazzo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2009
Posts: 792
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Latest with my EMPI problem... |
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| Quote: |
1) Front brakes are not shown in video and they do not have line flex. They're bleed volume is much lower than the rear. All lines were removed and blown.
2) Emergency brakes on back are adjusted to the farthest, loosest possible setting and still the rear wheels do not spin freely at all.
3) Can you speculate as to why the pedal is nearly reaching the floor before any brakes, rear only in this case, actually work enough to lock the rear wheels? Meanwhile, the fronts still spin, but not without resistance. Just not enough to stop the car.
Does this not sound like a Master Cylinder problem? Remember: Both front and rear are not experiencing same bleed volume. But the pedal is reaching the floor almost. And also, this is the Empi Master Cylinder required for the 4 wheel disc conversion. The pedal has been adjusted to both extreme settings. And all this by a professional mechanic with decades of VW only experience. Thanks |
Okay....Here's a few things to think about.
1) - Sounds good. Don't have much more to say.
2) - Either something you installed with the rear disc brake kit is causing your friction issue or it was something else, i.e. a pre-existing condition. Are the pads rubbing the rotor at all?? Can you hear any rubbing? I mean to me, and granted I'm not there to look at it, it seems like you could identify the cause of the rub pretty quick. I haven't installed the rear kit yet so I'm not real familiar, but is it possible that you got something in a bind when you tightened everything down? Go back over this kind of stuff until you find the cause. Like I said, it's either something to do with what you installed, or it was pre-existing.
3) - You may need to run what's called a residual valve in your rear brake line (2-pound). This is a light check valve that keeps fluid between the reservoir and the calipers. If you don't have one, most of your pedal travel will be taken up in getting fluid to the rear calipers. Some people run/need this valve while it seems that some don't. I think each brake system is slightly different.
I don't know about the M/C being the problem. While I'm not a "brake guy", hydraulic systems are pretty simple. A piston to push fluid and make sure all the air is out of the system. Looks like your M/C is doing it's job if you have line flex on the rear brakes. Also, I would say if you were able to get fluid out of each bleeder during the bleeding process, the M/C appears to be working.
I don't know if you saw this note in the paperwork that came with your disc brake kits, but this was included with my EMPI disc brake kit:
"When bleeding 4-Wheel disc brakes it may be necessary to hold the rear calipers onto the rotor at the 12 O' Clock position to completely evacuate the system of air before installing them on the caliper brackets. All calipers must be bled properly regardless of the kit purchased".
So that might be something to try if you didn't do this during the bleeding process.
To close, I just saw another unrelated post by a member running EMPI disc brakes. Seems satisfied and if nothing else, they are running them....which to me means they were able to get em' going and they stop the car. I'm not sure what you've got going, but I suspect you're over-looking something and when you find out what that is, you will be pleased with your brakes. Keep us posted and good luck! |
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john7
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2003
Posts: 1542
Location: Garden grove ca
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| ronbdavis wrote: |
| How about AC Industries kits, which claim they don't push the front wheels out the ~.25" that other kits do? |
.25?? CB kit is .875 per side thats 7/8"
_________________
Jesus Saves
Slot Mag King!
I accept Paypal, CASH, GOLD, SILVER, COINS, GUNS & money orders. |
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Hotrodvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2004
Posts: 6327
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Where did you come up w/ 7/8"?? I saw only about 1/2" per side.
_________________
'67 Sunroof
Eric
78x94 with IDA's....oober fun
Horsepower is an addiction........Addictions cost
lots of money!
Hose & Fittings |
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Motomazzo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2009
Posts: 792
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Latest with my EMPI problem... |
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Hey e85incallook!! Any news?? I'm dying here!! What'd you find out??? |
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e85incallook
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2007
Posts: 26
Location: SouthCentral Kansas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Latest with my EMPI problem... |
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| Motomazzo wrote: |
Hey e85incallook!! Any news?? I'm dying here!! What'd you find out??? |
Issue Resolved
The mechanic put the front calipers on the wrong sides.
The bleed valve was thus positioned on the bottom of the little cylinder in the caliper and we could not ever get the air out.
I know....
I know...
Regarding caliper flex on EMPI disc brakes...
After bleeding the front brakes properly we did observe a caliper flex as dramatic as the earlier Youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJsOMuvpghI
My buddy was changing his Grand Caravan's disc front brakes in the same shop today so I got to see how much disc flex he experiences.
Absolutely Zero
The speculation was that the calipers were larger and thus stronger. My response was that regardless of how strong a disc brake is their just can't be an allowance for flex. Flex is necessarily going to require more fluid in each caliper cylinder. I believe this is what causes spongy brake pedal. Now, my pedal is tons better with the calipers switched around. I will drive it like this and will probably put myself in a four wheel skid, but all three of us who worked on these brakes today felt they had an unresolved spongy brake pedal problem. Two of us think their may be still more air somewhere in the system, but we did all we could with the tools we had to bleed them.
Regarding stiff rear wheels:
We have resolved that Moto is correct. The cause of the hard to move wheels was from partially applied Emergency brakes. But these are the cables the Empi kit comes with. We decided to back their connecting cables off to the first two threads and hopefully wear the rear pads down to where the cables will fit. But the rear brakes remain tight.
What do ya think about all that? |
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Motomazzo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2009
Posts: 792
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Latest with my EMPI problem... |
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| Quote: |
Issue Resolved
The mechanic put the front calipers on the wrong sides.
The bleed valve was thus positioned on the bottom of the little cylinder in the caliper and we could not ever get the air out.
I know....
I know...
Regarding caliper flex on EMPI disc brakes...
After bleeding the front brakes properly we did observe a caliper flex as dramatic as the earlier Youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJsOMuvpghI
My buddy was changing his Grand Caravan's disc front brakes in the same shop today so I got to see how much disc flex he experiences.
Absolutely Zero
The speculation was that the calipers were larger and thus stronger. My response was that regardless of how strong a disc brake is their just can't be an allowance for flex. Flex is necessarily going to require more fluid in each caliper cylinder. I believe this is what causes spongy brake pedal. Now, my pedal is tons better with the calipers switched around. I will drive it like this and will probably put myself in a four wheel skid, but all three of us who worked on these brakes today felt they had an unresolved spongy brake pedal problem. Two of us think their may be still more air somewhere in the system, but we did all we could with the tools we had to bleed them.
Regarding stiff rear wheels:
We have resolved that Moto is correct. The cause of the hard to move wheels was from partially applied Emergency brakes. But these are the cables the Empi kit comes with. We decided to back their connecting cables off to the first two threads and hopefully wear the rear pads down to where the cables will fit. But the rear brakes remain tight.
What do ya think about all that? |
Well, I'm totally glad you figured out what was wrong on the front and rear brakes!! Good Deal!! As far as your other issues, i.e. caliper flex, spongy pedal, and e-brake cables, I'd like to know 2 things.
1) There are several others running EMPI disc brakes that didn't mention anything about having a spongy feel to the pedal. They seem satisfied. What's different about their set-up as opposed to what you are experiencing?
2) I'm still curious to know if anyone with other brands, i.e. CB is experiencing a little caliper flex and just haven't noticed. Honestly, if you had a firm pedal at the moment, would you notice/care about the flex? HotRodVW, you had a chance to look at yours yet?
I am getting very excited to test for myself. I got the D/C Master Cylinder installed yesterday and am getting ready to run my new brake lines. Shortly thereafter I will be bleeding my system and checking it out. I still say that full-house disc brakes of any quality ought to stop the shit out of an 1800lb car. And again, so far I have been satisfied with the quality I've seen in my kit. The bearings are crap. I can tell already. But I'll run them till they need replacing. Who knows. I've seen crap like that go the distance and other times it goes faster than you can say the alphabet!!
Thanks for the info, E85!!
BTW - Also remember, EMPI does state in the instructions that when installing full-house discs, it may be necessary to bleed the entire system with the rear calipers removed from their mount and held at the 12 o' clock position to completely evacuate the system of air. If you still have what you feel is a spongy pedal and haven't followed these directions, you may want to go back and do it to say you've given it a fair shot. Like they say, when all else fails follow the directions. 
Have a good night!! |
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Hotrodvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2004
Posts: 6327
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: Latest with my EMPI problem... |
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| Motomazzo wrote: |
HotRodVW, you had a chance to look at yours yet?
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Nope ....
_________________
'67 Sunroof
Eric
78x94 with IDA's....oober fun
Horsepower is an addiction........Addictions cost
lots of money!
Hose & Fittings |
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vanaru
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2005
Posts: 169
Location: Sykesville, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: BTW air in the system... |
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| would not cause the capliper flex. In fact if there is air present then the air is compressed and the calipler would not move. the more air you remove from the system the more force is exerted at the caliper. When the piston in the caliper stops, after making rotor to pad contact, the hydraulic pressure is "reversed" causing the housing to move and in teh empi situation, flex. This flex is what you feel in the pedal... Think of a hydraulic jack placed under a car on soft ground...operating the jack causes the piston to move up untill contact is made with the car's frame...once this happens, and the ground is soft, the jack is forced into the soft ground and the piston stays put. This is what happens with the empi system. The caliper construction, like the soft ground, allows for the flex. When the caliper flexes it allows the pedal to continue to move...and bingo. spongy pedal... |
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Motomazzo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2009
Posts: 792
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm running the EMPI wide-5 kit on my car (with a '72 pan). I drive this car 20k miles/yr or so, it's my daily driver and weekend road trip machine. I have had this kit on my car for about 2yrs now, still on the original pads, and have had no problems at all. It was very easy to install.... |
Okay Atye,
Sound off. Did you experience any "soft pedal" issues with your EMPI kit? Also, and this is a big hassle, but could you verify if you have any caliper flex? This symptoms from some of the guys who have recently installed their EMPI kits are driving me crazy. I'm trying to get mine installed and tested as well, but I can only go so fast with this car. Lots of other issues need tending to. Thanks!! |
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atye
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 580
Location: Peachtree City, GA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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I have not experienced "soft pedal" issues that I am aware of...
As for the caliper flex, if it hasn't broken or come loose on my car after 30K-40K+ miles of my particular style of faster-than-average daily driving, I don't think there is a problem. I don't "baby" this car, I drive it. I drive it EVERYWHERE. Rain or shine, hot or cold. The brakes seem as good today as they did when I installed them. I've had no issues with the bearings either.
Two weekends ago, my girlfriend and I drove with some local VW guys to the North GA mountains to go river tubing. I drove 75 miles on the interstate just to get to the departure point. We were running late so I was pushing it at a constant 80MPH for an hour, all the way through Atlanta. Then we took a more leisurely drive of maybe another 100 miles round trip and then I had the 75 mile return trip again. No problems on the high speed, no problems on the low speed. That tells me what I need to know right there. Not to sound apathetic, which I'm not when it comes to safety, but I don't know (or care) if the calipers may flex or whatever, the brakes work great and have worked great for a long time. I still have plenty of pad wear left, too.
In my mind the disc brakes are a non-issue. I never give them any thought or worry about them when I drive.
Your results may vary, offer void where prohibited, batteries not included
_________________
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1990 Audi 90q 20v sedan
1998 Suzuki Sport Sidekick
2002 Suzuki Grand Vitara
2005 Subaru Legacy GT wagon 5spd Turbo AWD |
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e85incallook
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2007
Posts: 26
Location: SouthCentral Kansas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: My Empi issues update... |
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After 3 days of use...
1) I discovered a major problem with the rear brakes. Please visit my youtube video again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4wamopyEsU When you get to the red comment, pause and read.
Bottom line is... the caliper's metal body began to dig into the discs of the rear discs. I heard it when rolling to a stop with the engine off. My local Empi distributor saw it and wondered if the kit came with "spacers" that would have been installed between the two portions of the calipers where they are bolted to the car. I don't know because I did not install them.
Moto, could you please tell me if any "spacers" came with your kit? Also, anything about this in the instructions? If you have time.
I caught the driver's side before it started to dig and the front look normal.
2) I got caught in the rain the other night. A couple of days later my fancy new brakes are rusty, even the calipers. |
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Hotrodvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2004
Posts: 6327
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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I can hear the "I told ya so" coming from a mile away..... 
_________________
'67 Sunroof
Eric
78x94 with IDA's....oober fun
Horsepower is an addiction........Addictions cost
lots of money!
Hose & Fittings |
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