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minsk
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Joined: March 17, 2008
Posts: 901
Location: pittsburgh
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minsk
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2008
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Location: pittsburgh
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wgargan
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2002
Posts: 871
Location: Dreaming of the Rockies
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 Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Ring compressor? Remove the rings and then put them back on?
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Current ride:
1983.5 Watercooled Vanagon 'L' Automatic transmission |
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kshbaja
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2008
Posts: 476
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:05 am Post subject: |
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I hear with a long wobble extension you can get the rod bolts off, remove the rod and piston as a unit, re-ring, perhaps new rod bearings, and reconnect the rod/piston/cylinder assembly with non-stretch rod bolts. I haven't done this but I know it can be done. It takes some ingenuity to hold things in place to get the rod back on the crank.
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hdenter
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008
Posts: 2938
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Wait for 10c to chime in or send him a PM. He should have your best solution. In an Air cooled, I would have rotated the crank so that this piston is at TDC. then used a ring compressor to work the cylinder back over the piston. But then, I have never been inside a WBXer and there might be a better way. Good Luck
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'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
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ftp2leta
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2986
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:52 am Post subject: |
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I have heard that Terry Kay found a type of ring compressor that fits within the tight confines of the water jacket. I'm not sure if this is true, I just remember reading it on here. Couldn't hurt to send him a PM to ask.
When these engines are assembled, the piston is intalled in the cylinder first. Then the piston is dropped down in the cylinder until it protrudes out the bottom to the point where the wrist pin hole is exposed. Finally, the whole assembly is slid onto the rod end and the pin is fitted through the access hole in the side of the water jacket. This is a difficult process, that takes dexterity, experience, and even a little luck - you're basically working blind trying to center up the pin with the small end of the rod.
The conventional fix for this would involve removing the piston from the rod, installing it in the cylinder again, and then reinstalling it on the rod. This is what I would recommend if you aren't able to find a magic ring compressor. Unfortunately, removing the wrist pins can be a real bear on an engine with some miles on it. Usually it won't slide out of the piston easily because some distortion occurs around the groove for the retaining ring. With some work, though, you can get the pin out, and then go about the rest of the operation. Patience is a virtue here, and you have to be careful not to damage the piston pin bore or rod end bushing.
As far as removing the entire rod goes, it's true that with a wobbler and a long extension you can remove the rod bolts through the cylinder base openings. However, you would have to be very careful not to drop the rod cap into the case during removal, and I'm not sure you can get enough clearance with the cylinder on the piston to get the rod back on. Because of this, I would recommend removing the piston from the rod instead of the rod from the crank.
Hope this helps.
David |
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Captain Pike
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3437
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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The rod wobbly trick is only for tear down.
Pop the rod,pull the pin,put the rod back and go from there.
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90Doka_Guy
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2007
Posts: 550
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| IMO, after doing this job twice its really no big deal to remove the piston from the cylinder. Make sure you have a nice set of snap ring pliers and you are good to go. The pins can be difficult to remove, but that is easily remedied by making a removal tool out of a washer, nut, and long bolt. Just make sure the washer and nut are covered in electrical tape of something soft of the like so that the piston wrist pin bore is not scored from the tool during removal. Quadruple check that the snap rings are fully seated in their grooves by rotating them in their grooves before sliding the cylinders back down. |
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OilNBolts
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Joined: May 12, 2007
Posts: 438
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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It would be a shame to get this far into the engine without addressing the 2.1 rod bolt problem anyway. Spring for the rebuilt rods.
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Captain Pike
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3437
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:23 am Post subject: |
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After doing this job more than twice I don't waste time with homemade pin extractors, risking damage to the piston is not acceptable and it just takes too long.
POP THE RODS,REPLACE THE ROD BEARINGS,REPLACE THE 2.1 ROD BOLTS.
If you don't understand how to do this then you have no buissness this deep in the engine.
| OilNBolts wrote: |
| It would be a shame to get this far into the engine without addressing the 2.1 rod bolt problem anyway. Spring for the rebuilt rods. |
Do what the man sez.
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LEARN TO SELF RESCUE
59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
....Bad Sneakers.... |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10147
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Kaiser Soze wrote: |
After doing this job more than twice I don't waste time with homemade pin extractors, risking damage to the piston is not acceptable and it just takes too long.
POP THE RODS,REPLACE THE ROD BEARINGS,REPLACE THE 2.1 ROD BOLTS.
If you don't understand how to do this then you have no buissness this deep in the engine.
| OilNBolts wrote: |
| It would be a shame to get this far into the engine without addressing the 2.1 rod bolt problem anyway. Spring for the rebuilt rods. |
Do what the man sez. |
Echo that
echo that
echo that
echo that
echo that
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sanchius 
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2007
Posts: 1559
Location: IN
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:56 am Post subject: Re: ouch piston out of cylinder 1989 wbx 2.1 |
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| minsk wrote: |
ok so ive been ...learning/doing a topend rebuild of my 1989 2.1 wbx.
things were going swimmingly...was trying to get the bottom cylinder seal off and pulled it to far off the piston..any tricks to getting it back on...ugh..piston rings in the way.. |
I know the feeling, I went thru the same thing; doing just a top end to fix a weeping head gasket and pulled a cylinder off the piston.
After reading/hearing about it here, I was afraid this was going to be a showstopper. But, actually, it wasn't hard at all.
I just reached in and compressed each ring by hand as I gently slid the cylinder back on. It is tight and I may have used something other than my fingertips, like a small block of plastic, to push the ring inward. But, I didn't use hose clamps or any special tools.
It was dead simple and I didn't have problems with the two that I did. If I was to do it again (i.e just a top end w/o cracking the case), I'll pull all the cylinders and put in new rings while I was there.
Lawrence |
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deprivation
Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2006
Posts: 1220
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| minsk wrote: |
| engine is out of the van |
This is the good part - you're half way there. A new rod set from Frank Stamos and some bearings from Van Cafe won't set you back that much and you'll be in good shape for a long time to come. Also, as long as you have the engine out, this is a good time to check the end-play and replace the mainseal.
You're actually in good shape.
For the record, I found the wrap-around ring compressor confounding. It works but I had a hell of a time with it.
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sanchius
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2007
Posts: 1559
Location: IN
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:38 am Post subject: |
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[quote="deprivation"]
| minsk wrote: |
... Also, as long as you have the engine out, this is a good time to check the end-play and replace the mainseal.
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So right. If you haven't watched this video at least 5 times, it is time to do so....
http://www.bostig.com/files/bostonbob&bostig-proper_wbxflywheel_install.wmv
Each time you will probably learn something new....
L |
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funagon
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006
Posts: 1308
Location: SLC, UT
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Kaiser Soze wrote: |
| If you don't understand how to do this then you have no buissness this deep in the engine. |
Or, if you don't understand how to do this then this is a perfect time to slow down, study up, search the samba, buy some tools, learn, and do.
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Captain Pike
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3437
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| funagon wrote: |
| Kaiser Soze wrote: |
| If you don't understand how to do this then you have no buissness this deep in the engine. |
Or, if you don't understand how to do this then this is a perfect time to slow down, study up, search the samba, buy some tools, learn, and do. |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rant alert<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
There is a first time for everything but a halfassed job will usually result with a hole in the block.
Whenever the heads need to come off on a 2.1 it is prudent to R/R the rod bolts,rod bearings,piston rings/ hone the barrels and all the gaskets/seals that can be reached not to mention the properly reworked heads. If the engine is out do the ENTIRE clutch assembly, pilot bearing AND the trans input seal.
Nice time to do the CVs with all the extra room to move around and why not the rear brakes while it's up in the air.
Take your Bentley to the can when you go and absorb some Vanagon instructions.
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LEARN TO SELF RESCUE
59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
....Bad Sneakers....
Last edited by Captain Pike on Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ftp2leta
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| There is a first time for everything but a halfassed job will usually result with a hole in the block. |
Strange, i did over 40 top end, of what i know, most of them not to say all are still on the raod.
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| properly reworked heads. |
Rework those head is a waste of time and money.
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| If the engine is out do the ENTIRE clutch assembly, pilot bearing AND the trans input seal. |
I agree but many are on a tight budget.
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| Nice time to do the CVs with all the extra room to move around and why not the rear brakes while it's up in the air. |
Unrelated and i'm sure his van is not in the air.
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| Take your Bentley to the can when you go and absorb some Vanagon instructions. |
I wouldn't do that 
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Captain Pike
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3437
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Ben,
By the heads I mean AMC with replaced valves but you knew that.
The rest is your opinion.I'm done here.
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LEARN TO SELF RESCUE
59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
....Bad Sneakers.... |
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minsk
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Joined: March 17, 2008
Posts: 901
Location: pittsburgh
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