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vr2jetta
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:32 am    Post subject: Long coolant hose alternative? Reply with quote

Is there a cheaper alternative to replacing the coolant hoses from the front to the rear of a vanagon? I have an 84' and I am sick of patching them up just to have them blow in a different spot next week. I was thinking of going to the hardware store and seeing what they have. I just dont have the $300+ to replace them with the stainless units but I do have a insane drive to make things myself. I was thinking of copper but I am not sure how much that would cost either. PVC may work for a short time until they get brittle and break themselves, so I am counting them out. Steel would probably work but getting the bends in the lines would be a chore, even though I could cut and weld the bends I would need. Are there any other budget friendly options out there? Has anybody done this and had much success? Thanks!
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240Gordy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marine coolant and exhaust hose. should be readily available in Florida.

mine have been fine (engine bay hoses, much more convoluted)
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found that chain link fence "top rail" is darn nearly the same size.

but it does not have rolled retainig lips on the ends. so you'll require some form of clamp to assure they do not loosen/slip off under heat & pressure.

I've had to just check (and adjust) mine each spring.

I still have the OEM metal lines over the gas tank, but DIY fence pipe from midship back.

I believe that Terry Key sells a 'back half' kit that may be of service to you. mine were far from a easy slip in and forget kind of job... although mine were free (brother had bent fencing from a tree incident).

Best of luck

Dan in NY
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vr2jetta
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
I found that chain link fence "top rail" is darn nearly the same size.


I cant believe I didnt think of that, I used to install fence. Top rail is 1 3/8 and 1 5/8, I may have to head to the hardware store and see what they have. Thanks!!
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goffoz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
I found that chain link fence "top rail" is darn nearly the same size.

but it does not have rolled retainig lips on the ends. so you'll require some form of clamp to assure they do not loosen/slip off under heat & pressure.

I've had to just check (and adjust) mine each spring.

I still have the OEM metal lines over the gas tank, but DIY fence pipe from midship back.

I believe that Terry Key sells a 'back half' kit that may be of service to you. mine were far from a easy slip in and forget kind of job... although mine were free (brother had bent fencing from a tree incident).

Best of luck

Dan in NY

How long have you had those in ? and did you have to bend them at all or is it a straight shot?
I was thinking of going with PEX, but I'm still a little shy on information about its suitability
This toprail seems like agreat idea to me,especially for a syncro
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd hate to see the radiator after the galvanize plating starts to peel off. All of the fences that I have seen had a really thick and poor quality galv dip.
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the home center stuff inside isn't galv plated, it's just bare metal.

little inside to flake. but i've had the system open a few times and seen no bother.

for the bends.. it's not a straight run. you have to bend it some..
do that carefully, it is thin, it will kink if pushed too much and it can be welded together.. I used some of the toprail couplers, or the slip in joints. certainly not perfect, but the solution for this DIY handman.

Dan in NY
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goffoz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
the home center stuff inside isn't galv plated, it's just bare metal.

little inside to flake. but i've had the system open a few times and seen no bother.

for the bends.. it's not a straight run. you have to bend it some..
do that carefully, it is thin, it will kink if pushed too much and it can be welded together.. I used some of the toprail couplers, or the slip in joints. certainly not perfect, but the solution for this DIY handman.

Dan in NY

What did you use to bend it?...did you have to pack it with sand.
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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My brother did this to his '91 Syncro. He used PVC designed for high temperature and replaced the entire hose system for the coolant. He retained the bits of hose that formed the curves and used the PVC for all the straight bits. Hose clamps where ever there was a connection to be made. That was about 12 years ago that he did that. Still running today.

Stephen






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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just FYI on the plastics, PVC and ABS may not be suitable for this app. PVC loses stability at about 140F, ABS at 160. Those are the rated temps, so sources claim they will work higher.

CPVC can handle the temps (good to 220F if I remember right, anyway it's intended for hot water service), but it can be way expensive and hard to find in larger sizes.

Cross-linked polyethylene (PEX) would be the better choice in a plastic pipe, it's not too expensive and intended for hot service, although not as hot as CPVC. 180-200F is generally considered safe, so it's at least within the range for automotive coolant.

I would go with the reinforced marine hose if I were contemplating this, it could be installed in one piece, eliminating at least four junctures. Just needs to be supported along the way.
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:

I would go with the reinforced marine hose if I were contemplating this, it could be installed in one piece, eliminating at least four junctures. Just needs to be supported along the way.

I think this idea is worth looking into.
I've seen pretty long cooling runs in some marine engines.

There's a hose also used in some marin exhaust applications.

Stuff is not cheap though.
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danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:

I would go with the reinforced marine hose if I were contemplating this, it could be installed in one piece, eliminating at least four junctures. Just needs to be supported along the way.


Is this product up to the task?

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=13399

Quote:
Shields premium fabric-reinforced, marine hose is made from black, heavy-walled, synthetic rubber. Reinforced with 2 or 4 plies of synthetic cord. Resistant to: engine heat, exhaust fumes, ozone, mild chemicals, antifreeze, and salt water.
Improved compounding allows this hose to be used in marine water and wet exhaust applications. Use where wire support is unnecessary. Designed for engine water circulation, heat exchanger, heavy duty discharge lines, and wet exhaust connections. Compounded to resist engine heat, exhaust fumes, ozone, mild acids, engine coolant, and salt water.

All diameters sold in 12-1/2 foot lengths.

Temperature range: -20 F to +200 F continuous / +250 F intermittent
Meets SAE J2006 Type R1
BRAND: Shields
Type: Exhaust Hose


1-1/4 ID = $50 +/- for 12.5 ft lengths

.
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-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5

danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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aquaboxa
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marine hose might just work...

Last edited by aquaboxa on Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bruce Wayne
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used "bulk" coolant hose from the FLAPS when I replaced mine two years ago. it was easy to install,the price was right and I have had no issuse at all with it.
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tclark
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

j_dirge wrote:
tencentlife wrote:

I would go with the reinforced marine hose if I were contemplating this, it could be installed in one piece, eliminating at least four junctures. Just needs to be supported along the way.


Is this product up to the task?

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=13399

.

I think you want the marine 1 1/4" wire-reinforced marine hose ~$12-$15/ft
might be cheaper by the 50' roll Part# 4684-1551
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=5087&location_id=5248

but at $15 and you need ~ 25' = $375 your not much better off $$ than SS
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tclark wrote:
j_dirge wrote:
tencentlife wrote:

I would go with the reinforced marine hose if I were contemplating this, it could be installed in one piece, eliminating at least four junctures. Just needs to be supported along the way.


Is this product up to the task?

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=13399

.

I think you want the marine 1 1/4" wire-reinforced marine hose ~$12-$15/ft
might be cheaper by the 50' roll Part# 4684-1551
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=5087&location_id=5248

but at $15 and you need ~ 25' = $375 your not much better off $$ than SS

Thats what I'm asking...
Is the wire reinforcement really necessary?
If we can strap the no-wire hose down every foot or so.. what's the need for the wire? Seems overkill, expecially at that price. Is the system cooling pressure such that the un-reinforced hose is not up the task? The product description says "engine water circulation".. perhaps only in shorter lengths but not in 10 ft lengths?

At $100 or so.. it might be worth testing.

One reason I'd prefer even the more expensive wire reinforced exhaust hose over SS is the better resistance to vibration... I'm not an engineer, but those long runs of SS pipe seem prone to vibration energy trasnfer.. puttng additional strain on hangers, and fittings at either end, etc..if not the early failure of the SS pipes themselves.

My Vanagon hoses have lasted some 20 yrs.. seems the proper marine hose would be good at least that long?
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-89 GL Westy, still humming along under the power of a used "WBXer of mystery"
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"

"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5

danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get the stuff with the wire reinforcement inside. Shieldsflex II or one of the others, making sure NOT to get the heavy ribbed outer wall kind.

I have been using it for a few years to replace the long pipes.

It is only $56 for 12.5' at the same place you linked to before.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/sh...haust+Hose

Mark



j_dirge wrote:
tclark wrote:
j_dirge wrote:
tencentlife wrote:

I would go with the reinforced marine hose if I were contemplating this, it could be installed in one piece, eliminating at least four junctures. Just needs to be supported along the way.


Is this product up to the task?

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=13399

.

I think you want the marine 1 1/4" wire-reinforced marine hose ~$12-$15/ft
might be cheaper by the 50' roll Part# 4684-1551
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=5087&location_id=5248

but at $15 and you need ~ 25' = $375 your not much better off $$ than SS

Thats what I'm asking...
Is the wire reinforcement really necessary?
If we can strap the no-wire hose down every foot or so.. what's the need for the wire? Seems overkill, expecially at that price. Is the system cooling pressure such that the un-reinforced hose is not up the task? The product description says "engine water circulation".. perhaps only in shorter lengths but not in 10 ft lengths?

At $100 or so.. it might be worth testing.

One reason I'd prefer even the more expensive wire reinforced exhaust hose over SS is the better resistance to vibration... I'm not an engineer, but those long runs of SS pipe seem prone to vibration energy trasnfer.. puttng additional strain on hangers, and fittings at either end, etc..if not the early failure of the SS pipes themselves.

My Vanagon hoses have lasted some 20 yrs.. seems the proper marine hose would be good at least that long?
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<One reason I'd prefer even the more expensive wire reinforced exhaust hose over SS is the better resistance to vibration... I'm not an engineer, but those long runs of SS pipe seem prone to vibration energy trasnfer.
puttng additional strain on hangers, and fittings at either end, etc..if not the early failure of the SS pipes themselves.>>

I'll tell ya what--

I'd really be interested in seeing 0.65 wall stainless fracture-anywhere from harmonic vibration--suspended in rubber hose on both ends.

It that was the case the mild steel tubing in any 83.5 to late 85 Vanagon would have never made it around the block from the showroom.

This isn't even worth considering.

<<My Vanagon hoses have lasted some 20 yrs.. seems the proper marine hose would be good at least that long?>>

Sure, and insulate the coolant some more that's runnng under the
van.
Good Idea.

You'll lose any possibility of radiating any heat out of the system by running it inside some thick walled hose.

The operating temps do drop a bit using the stainless pipes.
The free air running over the pipes under the Van does drop the coolant temps.

This has been documented here several times over the years.


What I wanna see is you shoe horn the thick walled marine exhaust hose throught the crossmember in the middle of the Van that also holds the front heater hose.

It ain't all gonna fit at once.

I know--run the marine hose under the crossmemeber & the gas tank--
Rip the heater hose out of the crossmemeber & run the coolant hose in through the crossmember--and forget about running the front heater.

Another good idea.

Don't do the job right--cob it--
It'll all get up front one way or another--I know.

To save a couple of bucks, you guys sure know how to take the long way around the block.

Thin walled Fence Post--

Now I've heard it all.

Another fine way to kill a day--

And all's ya need is you elecrically adept buddy with his conduit bender to form the pipe---

HEY--there's an idea--

Get your buudy that has the conduit bender to make a set of coolant pipes outa thin walled electrical servive tubing!

In Florida ( place this thread was generated ) the salt air should have these rusted out in about a month--
Driving on Daytona Beach they should be gone in about a two weeks.---

Another great space age technology, ultra low buck, coolant pipe solution!!
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kirsplat
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used marine grade 3/4" hose when I ran my stainless pipes and it worked great, and did fit nicely in between the crossmember.

I used 5/8" to 3/4" adapters to tie in to the stock hose.

I have about 70 feet left over if anyone is interested. Located in Seattle. pm me.
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Chris
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Bruce Wayne
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirsplat wrote:
I used marine grade 3/4" hose when I ran my stainless pipes and it worked great, and did fit nicely in between the crossmember.

I used 5/8" to 3/4" adapters to tie in to the stock hose.

I have about 70 feet left over if anyone is interested. Located in Seattle. pm me.
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Chris

that's the same stuff I used. didn't know it was marine grade. the kid at the FLAPS screwed up then because I only paid about $50 for what I got. I remember when I bought it from him it was his first week working therer.no longer there,they caught him sleeping on the job.
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