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phantomx1
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2006
Posts: 127
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 Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: Question on HP for 1600cc engine. |
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The Haynes manual lists the 1600cc "B" engine as 57hp. The manual also lists an 1600cc "AK" engine as 46hp.
If they are both 1600cc sized engines, what mechanical design difference on the "B" engine that gives it 11 more in hp than the same size "AK" engine? |
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DarthWeber
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Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7542
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| One could be SAE HP and the other DIN HP. |
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phantomx1
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2006
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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SAE is standard Automotive Engineering Society... I think.
What is DIN? |
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DarthWeber
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Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7542
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Deutsches Institut fur Normung.
SAE = Society of Automotive Engineers
Last edited by DarthWeber on Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The Noof
Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005
Posts: 4346
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| DIN :Deutsches Institut für Normung eV |
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DarthWeber
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Joined: November 24, 2007
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Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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The Noof wins again!  |
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phantomx1
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2006
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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So then the 1600 cc "B" engine and the 1600cc "AK" engine are both 46hp, or both are 57hp, or both could still actually have a difference of 11hp between them?
The difference in hp has always had me wondering what mechanicals made the difference but could not figure out what it would be that would give the 11 hp difference.
Both hp that I listed for each engine came out of the same chart in the book which leads me to believe that the ratings were for the same automotive standards. |
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DarthWeber
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Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7542
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't know if one or both of those motors are single port or dual port. Also VW changed their cam specs and CR through the years. A combination of these things could add up to 11 HP. |
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miniman82
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Joined: March 22, 2005
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Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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It all adds up to the same thing: a 1.6 is pretty weak, but still a lot of fun to flog till it dies! 
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sturgeongeneral
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Joined: June 23, 2005
Posts: 2460
Location: Sacramento, California
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| miniman82 wrote: |
| It all adds up to the same thing: a 1.6 is pretty weak, but still a lot of fun to flog till it dies! |
Don't you remember the 36 horse put the gas pedal to the floor and wait while it winds up????
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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It only took one turbo to forget about all that.
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phantomx1
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2006
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthWeber wrote: |
| I don't know if one or both of those motors are single port or dual port. Also VW changed their cam specs and CR through the years. A combination of these things could add up to 11 HP. |
This makes the most viable sense so far DarthWeber. The Haynes manual had an * by the AK 1600 engine with sub note it was a dual port. The 1600 B engine didn't have the * , which indicates to me they were referencing it as a single port. It would seem a dual port would give better breathing but those dual manifolds attach to a single pipe manifold. Not sure if that pipe is smaller than the single port models.
I did a search and found a wiki reference to hp and the various world standards for hp and every standards they listed gave an equivilance of hp in watts. The basic mechanical standard for one hp was 745.6999 W and the DIN standard which is metric, for one hp was 735.49875 W. A 1.4% difference in watts. Using that 1.4% of power subtracted from 57hp gives 56hp, so I don't think that one was listed in SAE and the other in DIN in the same chart in the Haynes manual. Based on that wiki reference to hp. 46hp is about 20% below 57hp.
This difference in hp on the same size engine has had me wondering about it for some time. Sure would like to know what the difference is. Like you said it could be a comination of things. I know on aircraft piston engines sometimes the mfg de-rates an engine's hp by using a smaller carburetor. Maybe the AK's intake pipe below the carb is smaller in diameter than the B's single port intake pipe.
Sorry for the lengthy post. |
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Matthew
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Location: Eastern Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Question on HP for 1600cc engine. |
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| phantomx1 wrote: |
The Haynes manual lists the 1600cc "B" engine as 57hp. The manual also lists an 1600cc "AK" engine as 46hp.
If they are both 1600cc sized engines, what mechanical design difference on the "B" engine that gives it 11 more in hp than the same size "AK" engine? |
The B engine doesn't have more horsepower if they are both rated on the same scale. The difference is the rating system changed in 1972. In reality the AK engine will make a little more power than the B code engine since it was a DP head engine instead of SP.
See explanation from wikipedia:
SAE gross horsepower
Prior to the 1972 model year, American automakers rated and advertised their engines in brake horsepower (bhp), frequently referred to as SAE gross horsepower, because it was measured in accord with the protocols defined in SAE standards J245 and J1995. As with other brake horsepower test protocols, SAE gross hp was measured using a stock test engine, generally running with few belt-driven accessories and sometimes fitted with long tube (test headers) in lieu of the OEM exhaust manifolds. The atmospheric correction standards for barometric pressure, humidity and temperature for testing were relatively idealistic.
[edit] SAE net horsepower
In the United States, the term bhp fell into disuse in 1971-72, as automakers began to quote power in terms of SAE net horsepower in accord with SAE standard J1349. Like SAE gross and other brake horsepower protocols, SAE Net hp is measured at the engine's crankshaft, and so does not account for transmission losses. However, the SAE net hp testing protocol calls for standard production-type belt-driven accessories, air cleaner, emission controls, exhaust system, and other power-consuming accessories. This produces ratings in closer alignment with the power produced by the engine as it is actually configured and sold. The change to net hp effectively deflated power ratings to assuage the auto insurance industry and environmental and safety lobbies.
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