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Want to see inside the GoWesty Cylinder Head?
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Pascal
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:00 pm    Post subject: Want to see inside the GoWesty Cylinder Head? Reply with quote

So I finally got my new GoWesty heads. I decided to have a peek inside to see the valve job and check out the valves. Here is what I found:

I think these two show the 3 angle valve job on the intake seats.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This shows two different exhaust seats. I can't see the 3 angle valve job on them and inside the red circle is a sharp machining edge that I plan on smoothing out. I was dissapointed to see those edges in the exhaust ports.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here are one set of keepers. Notice one has a machined mating surface and the other does not. I don't know how significant that is but I've never seen that on the other 6 heads I've worked on. Some people advise to trim the keepers so they are not loose on the valve stem. However, if the keepers are snug on the valve, will the valves still be able to rotate as they are supposed to? All the keepers I have looked at on my other heads are not tight, even the OE VW keepers on the OE VW heads.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I tried to find a name on the valves to see who made them, but they only have numbers.
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iceracer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting, hmmmmm why are the insides of the ports so dark? Were they run or jsut not cleaned well? Hard to make out on the pics.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:47 am    Post subject: Re: Want to see inside the GoWesty Cylinder Head? Reply with quote

Pascal wrote:
if the keepers are snug on the valve, will the valves still be able to rotate as they are supposed to?


Yes, no worries there.
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Pascal
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iceracer wrote:
Very interesting, hmmmmm why are the insides of the ports so dark? Were they run or jsut not cleaned well? Hard to make out on the pics.


There are brand new, never run. It's just very hard to get a good picture. The shiny section just bellow the valve seat is there they smoothed the port a little. The darker sections are the unsmootherd castings. I intend to smooth out the exhaust ports so they flow better.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI, the AMC's already have 3 angles on the intakes, where it counts, and 2 on exhaust. I don't normally see that much machined area surrounding the seats so that may be work done by GW's people.

The flashing inside the ports should have been smoothed out, I do all mine so the bowls are blended, at minumum. If they didn't even do that much, I wouldn't even look to see if there is any other port work.

Those intakes look like the AMC-supplied valves, which are fine; not so clear on the exhausts, you can't tell by just the depression in the head as that can vary even between production runs from a single manufacturer. TRW exhaust valves are numbered 3911, which will be printed aaroud the valve stem either above or right below the keeper grooves; it should say TRW there as well. They could be Osvat Italian steel, which are OK but I had one start burning with low miles so it's only TRW for me.

The keepers should not touch each other when clasped over the stem; looks like they faced off one of each pair, fine so long as you arrange your pairs. No, this won't limit valve rotation, that is driven a lot by spring dynamics, as you can plainly see in high-speed cinematography of engines in motion; watching those I kind of question even the need to have rockers meet the valve off-center to initiate rotation, but I do it anyway.
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iceracer
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always have my guy do a slight port job on my heads. Can't hurt. So are you happy with their product?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember the flow is out the exhaust not in. That bit of casting will make no difference in performance. I would be more concerned about my dremel tool getting away from me and nicking the seat. As far as the 3 angel exhaust seat cut. That can be over rated as well. 3 angle seat jobs were not to enhance performance, but to have the ability to control the margin width and where the seat contacts the valve face. By working with 3 angels, you can move the contact up and down the valve face. Remember, the exhaust valve needs to disipate its heat through the seat. The more contact within reason, the more heat can be disipated. Again, if you can get the air in the engine, it will find it's way out. If you really want to see the end result of your valve job, get some lapping compound and lap your valves in, the light gray area left on the seat and valve face will show you how good your valve job is. Flame away.
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Pascal
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is from the GoWesty Web site where they talk about what their machine shop does to their heads:

"They remove all of the valves and scrap them. They smooth the ports just past the valve seats for better air flow, perform a super quality three-angle valve job, and install brand new OE German quality intake and exhaust valves."

The exhaust valve have "10349S B-DH" on the top of the stem. So they do not appear to be TRW. I suspected that because I have some TRW type 1 valves and they have the "TRW" on the stem. (Thanks 10C for the TRW valve information) When I specifically asked GoWesty what brand valve the used they said OE German quality and they thought they were TRW.

Am I satisfied? I did not get what I was expecting, but maybee I was expecting too much for the price they charge, I realy don't know. I was certainelly not expecting the have to do any work to them after reading their write up on them. But then maybee any cleaning up I do will have minimal performance improvements.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I was thinking what you got doesn't exactly live up to the claims they make for them.

The cheap AMC exhausts always have "3417-LAF" below the grooves, so they did change those to something else, question is, what? AMC intakes are 3416-LAF, by the way. If you still have those it's OK, but they do claim to replace ALL valves with German ones, don't they?.

Definitely if you have a cutting burr then cut down those flashings just below the seats, it does make a difference, they will create high turbulence where you want laminar flow, and the ones in the exhaust flow will get extremely hot. But be really careful not to nick a seat, as stated. The thing that you have to watch for isn't the burr, your attention is already there, it's the chuck on the die grinder that will hit the seat. Ask me how I know...

All in all not very impressive heads, especially in contrast to the way they're advertised.
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240Gordy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Ask me how I know...


Okay, Sensei, how do you know?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Place a small pocket / pen light in the other end of the head and then shoot the photo to lighten up the port better.....
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Well I was thinking what you got doesn't exactly live up to the claims they make for them.

The cheap AMC exhausts always have "3417-LAF" below the grooves, so they did change those to something else, question is, what? AMC intakes are 3416-LAF, by the way. If you still have those it's OK, but they do claim to replace ALL valves with German ones, don't they?.

Definitely if you have a cutting burr then cut down those flashings just below the seats, it does make a difference, they will create high turbulence where you want laminar flow, and the ones in the exhaust flow will get extremely hot. But be really careful not to nick a seat, as stated. The thing that you have to watch for isn't the burr, your attention is already there, it's the chuck on the die grinder that will hit the seat. Ask me how I know...

All in all not very impressive heads, especially in contrast to the way they're advertised.


I agree... I also think that the intake are stock AMC, and like you said, not a real problem.

Hey Tenc, need a GW engine core Smile

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whuh? You got one or what?
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240Gordy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might be interested in that core . . .
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
The cheap AMC exhausts always have "3417-LAF" below the grooves, so they did change those to something else, question is, what? AMC intakes are 3416-LAF, by the way. If you still have those it's OK, but they do claim to replace ALL valves with German ones, don't they?.


I just checked and the intake valves have "10348 H-AH" on the stems so it looks like they did replace them as well. But like 10C says "with what?"
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I have heard they are Eaton valves. Cleaning up the intakes & the exhaust ports can & do help with the flow & HP of the engine. To bad they don't do any of that work. I always do the port work for my customers. Thanks Rocky
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey there Rocky!

Yeah, I always blend the bowls, taking away any casting edges below where the seats bed in, the AMC's always have some on one end of the head or the other because the castings don't perfectly center with their machining registration marks. I also go into the ports just to smooth areas of high roughness, but that's all.

Finally I port-match the intake runner pairs to each head; the end casting openings are smaller than the port openings, so leaving a step there would create a band of turbulence all around the port perimeter right where you would really like the flow to be smoothing out right before the valve. That's VW's fault, not AMC's, the OEM heads have the same bad match.

But that's all I do on my production engine heads, and other than the port-matching, that's what I expected to see with the GW heads. To go further involves hours and hours of work, so they would never sell for that price if there was real porting job on them anymore than I could sell my engines for my price if I fully ported each one. But it does improve mass flow, dramatically. There wouldn't be thousands of dollars spent and whole businesses that thrive on only doing head work if it wasn't a major contributor to power output. Rocky is a master of this process and his race engines prove it.
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Last edited by tencentlife on Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, this thread has drawn some pretty sharp people out of cyberspace for comments!

Back when type IV 1700 engines were forever ruining VW reputation, one could pretty reliable predict that if the valve head came off at about 60k miles, it was an Eaton-Livonia, and if it was at 100k miles it was an ATE. (A. Teves), later TRW.
The ATE's were German for sure. Not sure about the Eaton. Maybe German, maybe not. VW pretty much used all German suppliers back then, I think.
This is just a snapshot, but shows that sometimes one company has better stuff.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Things have changed a lot from when I first got into the VW industry back in the late 60s most all the parts came from Germany and the parts made here in the USA were very good.
As the greed of the big box stores came in to play, quality has gone down. The story from them if we make it to good it will cost the consumer to much and they won't buy it. So the builders that don't buy into that line of BS, will replace, blend, regrind that ever it takes to do the job right
Why do the AMC heads even come with valves? Most of the in the know engine builders don't use the exhaust valves & some won't use the intakes. Checking the valves guides for I.D. size, no they all don't pass the bore gauge test.
If the builder has to replace the ex. valves hone or replace guides grind the keepers or replace with billet keepers the cost of the head build go's up.
Now the builder has to explain to the customer why he's paying more for the heads and the other guy is putting them on or into the hands of the customer with lower grade parts that WILL decrease the life of the heads.
One of the better exhaust and intake valves for the WBX heads come from Brazil TRW has very good quality control, I use TRW exhaust valves in all the WBX heads I build.
This nothing that has not been gone over by 10 cent and others but I thought I would add my opinion about the AMC heads out of the box. Thanks Rocky
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PocketRocket wrote:
What I have heard they are Eaton valves.


I contacted GW again and said I don't think they are TRW valve. They replied saying they use either TRW or Eaton in their new heads. So I guess they are Eaton because they don't have TRW stamped anywhere on them.

Thanks for all the advice guys. I guess I have a bit of work to do on these heads to make me happy with them. I wish someone else had started this thread before me Confused but I hope someone else can benefit from this thread to make an informed purchase.

I'm sure the heads would be fine as is, but as Boston Bob used to say "it's all in the detail" and in my opinion these heads need a bit more work for me to be happy with them.
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