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Flavio Samba Member

Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 414 Location: Madeira Island, Portugal
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: 25 HP and 36 HP Outside differences ? |
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Hello
Is it possible to see some diferences beetween the 25 Hp case and the 36 HP one, or are they equal from an outside view ?
If there are some diferences could anybody post some pics ?
Thank you very much for any help
Regards
Flavio |
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RareAir Samba Member

Joined: May 11, 2002 Posts: 14577 Location: 18 miles North of the border
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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The case itself? Or the parts that go on the outside? (shroud, fuel pump, oil filler etc....)
If you looking at a very early 25hp, early cases were made of Aluminum. Later VW added Magnesium for extra strength. The coloring is obvious if you find an Aluminum case. Here's the one out of my '47
_________________ 1947 Typ 11a
1954 Typ 117
1956 Typ 151
1959 Typ 117
1959 Typ 265
1961 356B
1966 Typ 151
1966 Typ 241 |
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Flavio Samba Member

Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 414 Location: Madeira Island, Portugal
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Hello. Thanks for your reply. I mean the case itself. When the magnesium was added by VW is it more dificult to see the diferences ? |
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Ivan Fuller Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2005 Posts: 149 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:16 am Post subject: |
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If you are going to use a 36hp case you should try and find an early one that does not have the cast threaded lug on the genarator stand that holds the later style oil filler. I'd say this is the most notable visual difference between a magnesium (elektron) 36hp and 25hp case, also the early cases do not use the later part numbering system. |
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johnshenry Samba Member

Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9403 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Ivan Fuller wrote: |
If you are going to use a 36hp case you should try and find an early one that does not have the cast threaded lug on the genarator stand that holds the later style oil filler. I'd say this is the most notable visual difference between a magnesium (elektron) 36hp and 25hp case, also the early cases do not use the later part numbering system. |
x2 That is what I look for too. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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Flavio Samba Member

Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 414 Location: Madeira Island, Portugal
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:31 am Post subject: |
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By phone I have speak with the person that has the good 25 or 36 HP case and he told that the case have the cast threaded lug for the oil filler. So, it seems like a 36. He also sent me the parts numbers : the rigth side is 111101102 A and the feft is 1111011101 A. Can you give some more info with this ?
Thanks |
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johnshenry Samba Member

Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9403 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:38 am Post subject: |
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What is the serial number on the case??? _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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spectre6000 Samba Member

Joined: April 19, 2009 Posts: 2014 Location: Broomfield, CO
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:00 am Post subject: |
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RareAir wrote: |
If you looking at a very early 25hp, early cases were made of Aluminum. Later VW added Magnesium for extra strength. |
The case was eventually made of magnesium for light weight (a crucial part of Ferdinand Porsche's engineering philosophy), not for strength. Aluminum is the stronger of the two alloys in this application. _________________ Jason Hopper
-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
-'84 M1009 CUCV
-'81 K10
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
"Don't feed the Shitty Parts Monster!" -Me |
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Zwitterkafer Samba Member

Joined: November 17, 2007 Posts: 956 Location: Lanark County, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:01 am Post subject: |
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X2 on the serial number being the best indicator.
Another clue:
The small raised area onto which the s/n is stamped is longer left-to-right and more pronounced on the 36 hp version.
Be aware that there exist factory replacement 25 hp cases with 36 hp appearance and 36 hp upgrades, but still with the 25 hp cylinder bores in the block. In this case, (pun intended) measuring the cylinder bores is the way to tell.
H. _________________ "Criticism comes easier than Craftsmanship"
- Zeuxius, 400 BC |
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Flavio Samba Member

Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 414 Location: Madeira Island, Portugal
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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You mean that the cylinder bores have diferent diametres ? Which are ? |
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Zwitterkafer Samba Member

Joined: November 17, 2007 Posts: 956 Location: Lanark County, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, I won't be able to measure and post on this before Monday.
Anyone?
H. _________________ "Criticism comes easier than Craftsmanship"
- Zeuxius, 400 BC |
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Flavio Samba Member

Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 414 Location: Madeira Island, Portugal
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Ok Zwitterkafer.
I'll wait for the measure. All this is because I want to built a good 36 HP. The person who has the good case lives farway from me and all the talks about the case have been done by phone.
I have an used but still good Mahle 36 hp cylinder set. The cylinder part that inserts in the case has a diameter of 81.8 mm. Regardind this, I imagine that the bore in the case must be a litle bit bigger (82 mm ?).
If the person's case has that measure (82 mm) can I assume that it is a 36 Hp Case ?
Thank you |
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Zwitterkafer Samba Member

Joined: November 17, 2007 Posts: 956 Location: Lanark County, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:03 am Post subject: |
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fnribeiro, you are correct.
36 hp case openings = 82 mm dia
25 hp case openings = 80 mm dia
Sorry for the delay; I could only measure them this morning.
Cheers,
H. _________________ "Criticism comes easier than Craftsmanship"
- Zeuxius, 400 BC |
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Flavio Samba Member

Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 414 Location: Madeira Island, Portugal
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Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:33 am Post subject: |
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Ok Zwitterkafer. Thanks for your care.
The person who has de case phone me and says that the openings have 80 mm. So, it´s a 25 HP case.
He also says that I could open the bores for 82 mm., but I believe that is not suficient for transforming a 25 Hp case in a 36 HP case. There must be some other internal differences. I think I am going to tell him to forget the possible business with me.
Best regards |
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Zwitterkafer Samba Member

Joined: November 17, 2007 Posts: 956 Location: Lanark County, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:22 am Post subject: |
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Yes, there are other internal differences; the 36 hp have more internal ribbing for rigidity, and at some point the oil galleries had some refinements in the area of the pressure relief drillings. While a converted 25 hp would work, (some people here do that on purpose to circumvent buying expensive 25hp pistons & cylinders) it would be better to start with the real thing, freeing up your seller's 25hp for someone else in need.
Good luck,
H _________________ "Criticism comes easier than Craftsmanship"
- Zeuxius, 400 BC |
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Flavio Samba Member

Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 414 Location: Madeira Island, Portugal
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Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Once more, thanks for your very good help.
Best regards |
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SplitPersonality Samba Member

Joined: September 26, 2004 Posts: 631 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Bringing up an old topic here....have been doing some searching, but...
- What is the last engine serial number on a pure aluminium case? (feb '51 is it?)
- What is the last engine serial number on the 25hp engine?
- What is the last engine serial number on a "cast gen stand" engine? |
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L378 Samba Member

Joined: December 29, 2004 Posts: 992 Location: MD
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:02 am Post subject: |
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SplitPersonality wrote: |
Bringing up an old topic here....have been doing some searching, but...
- What is the last engine serial number on a pure aluminium case? (feb '51 is it?)
- What is the last engine serial number on the 25hp engine?
- What is the last engine serial number on a "cast gen stand" engine? |
I can't remember off the top off my and can't do a quick search for the first two questions right now, but but first date seems about right and want to say sometime in Dec '53 for the other (but can't recall with certainty) as to the 3rd - well in to the middle 60's with a number above 4000000. It was in fact, a fresh air 36 hp. You can see this in this vintage speed forum thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531266&start=20
I'd be interested in the date for this
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Ivan Fuller wrote:
If you are going to use a 36hp case you should try and find an early one that does not have the cast threaded lug on the genarator stand that holds the later style oil filler. I'd say this is the most notable visual difference between a magnesium (elektron) 36hp and 25hp case, also the early cases do not use the later part numbering system.
x2 That is what I look for too.
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I'm assuming this is something in the very late 50s? |
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SplitPersonality Samba Member

Joined: September 26, 2004 Posts: 631 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:49 am Post subject: |
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L378 - thanks for your inputs!
The picture (pasted below) in your attached link pretty much answers 2 of my questions, I see.
Now - when did they stop the shiny alu case?...January-1951?
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L378 Samba Member

Joined: December 29, 2004 Posts: 992 Location: MD
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:18 am Post subject: |
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from progressive refinements engine section page M9
Jan 19, 1951 chassis# 1-0225 376 & 20-09 065 unit # 272 061 Crank Case Now: made of electron Formerly: remelt alloy
So 1-19-51 is the date
The exact date of the cutoff for the 25 page M 19
Dec 21 1953 Chassis # 1-0575 415 & 20-069 409 unit # 695 282 & 695 356 & 122-019 888
I think that covers it as I see the end of 36 hp production listed in the above photo.
So my question remains
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Ivan Fuller wrote:
If you are going to use a 36hp case you should try and find an early one that does not have the cast threaded lug on the genarator stand that holds the later style oil filler. I'd say this is the most notable visual difference between a magnesium (elektron) 36hp and 25hp case, also the early cases do not use the later part numbering system.
x2 That is what I look for too.
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