First engine start -- starter hesitates with full throttle?

OLDveedubs · Samba Member Joined: February 10, 2003 Posts: 602

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

(wires have since been added) Smile

In the process of starting my 1600sp w/ 30 PIC (manual choke) engine. Using an 019 (statically timed for now at 7.5* BTDC). Fuel to the bowl and down the intake. Tried starting with both choke open and closed.

Full tear down, inspection, and assembly. All new ignition parts and pieces. I have all wires hooked, starting the engine on the pan. Coil +/-, oil pressure, generator + to starter and idiot light. I chased a bad ground problem earlier in the day, now have a direct wire from the battery to the starter bolt for a better ground. Will pursue a final fix for this later, just want to get the engine running. Freshly painted chassis.

Idiot lights are good, cranking fine.

I am going to trouble shoot spark issues tomorrow but I have a question about something that is a little perplexing.

When I crank the engine at idle throttle, I get oil pressure, but no sign of life regardless of how long I crank. Plenty of fuel and air, not sure about spark yet.

HOWEVER, when I tried cranking after a few blips of the throttle for fuel (accelerator pump is working), and then hold the throttle open, the engine continues to crank normally but at times it will almost stop and the starter is really laboring. No signs of rubbing, no abnormal sights or sounds otherwise. Doesn't back fire, sputter, or show signs of starting. The only difference is this really laborious stroke and then the starter catches up, to repeat it again in a second or two until I release full throttle.

This only happens when I'm using full throttle during cranking. So, is this an issue outside of my possible spark issue? Any other ideas? Thanks for any leads!
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modok · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:45 pm Post subject:

Does sound like an ignition problem, perhaps too far advanced?

Dale M. · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:46 pm Post subject:

Double check firing order, no start could simply be timing is 180 out.... Or a real no fire situation from coil.... Check distributor (points) for opening and closing....

Put test light on negative (-) side of coil and other side of test lamp to ground, does lamp flash on/off/on as starter spins motor over?

Dale
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Danwvw · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:50 pm Post subject:

Sounds like it may have good compression! Probably a bad starter or poor connection to the battery or a low battery. Here is a video of mine "First Start"!
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OLDveedubs · Samba Member Joined: February 10, 2003 Posts: 602

Nice quick responses guys!

Dan, if you hear when your engine is about to catch in that video the starter kind of hesitates. I'd say mine is like that only a bit more exagerated.

Brand new battery Napa 19L bought today.

My distributor drive gear was 180* off, so I did remove the spring, pin, and gear at the bottom of the distributor and reversed it. I realize pulling the drive gear is ideal, but I've already torn down the long block due to a rocker arm wavy washer slipping down a push rod tube. Evil or Very Mad

Trying to avoid that heart attack again. My understanding is the reversed gear on the bottom of the distributor makes everything normal up top. Plug wires are in by the book order.

I will test the points (new Bosch), gap them if need be (double check), test the condenser (new WW) and look for good voltage at the coil (NOS Bosch Blue 6V). I'll also try timing it at TDC.

It was certainly strange to hear that noise, but there doesn't seem to be any other nasty noises from the engine at this time. It has been difficult with a little bit of a untypical build (single port, manual choke, etc) to get info, but as usual you guys rock!
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-Ryan
Restoration Updates
www.my59bug.com
"Perfection through inspection."

Danwvw · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:16 pm Post subject:

It should start at Idle if the carb is primed and all is well. Sometimes the push rod to the oil pump can get stuck high because it rids on the distributor gear which has a tendency to push up if you had the distributor off and turned the engine over and you won't get fuel pressure.
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

OLDveedubs · Samba Member Joined: February 10, 2003 Posts: 602

Plenty of fuel pressure, fuel bowl drain wasn't tight to remind me! Cool

_________________
-Ryan
Restoration Updates
www.my59bug.com
"Perfection through inspection."

Danwvw · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:06 pm Post subject:

The thought occurs to me that perhaps the distributor gear pushed up and slipped a grove on the brass crank gear and that has thrown the distributor sync off. Since your likely going to have to rotate the drive gear to the correct position it would be good to put your distributor back the way it should be so it doesn't bit some one some day.

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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

Jody '71 · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:11 pm Post subject:

this might not have anything to do with your electrical issues, but did you re-polarize your generator?
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morymob · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:51 am Post subject:

Back off the timing a bit. I sometimes have dizzy clamp loose enuf so i can turn diz by hand, while cranking rotate diz fwd/reverse and it will start right up when u get the timing close, then do it correctly(when running).Above has nothing to do with starting, not in the pic yet.

rockurob · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:00 am Post subject:

Do all of the above.....check all of the above post suggestions

further more.....for you have a timing problem and or
valve adjustment problem, valves not adjusted properly
I speculate since since you got your dist gear 180°
out....maybe did not adjust the valves correctly...

for the sound you describe is like testing a used car for a
bad valve/burnt valve/and or for good compression
....in this simple test at an auto auction....
we would pull the coil wire....so no fire getting to plugs....turn
the engine over....and listen....

if the engine turned over smooth....
all valves good, thus good compression.....if erratic or sounds like
out of time.....then very good chance....low compression and or
burnt valve on a cylinder.....
the sound you describe sounds like out of time and or ?? compression
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OLDveedubs · Samba Member Joined: February 10, 2003 Posts: 602

Well, went through all the tests you guys had recommended. Good spark at coil, good coil, good condenser test. Got spark at the plugs. No start.

Set timing at TDC. Nothing.

Decided to swap out the 019 for a spare SVDA I had laying around.

And....

Link

Slight oil leak at the fitting for my full flow. After shutdown used red loctite instead of thread sealant this time. Also had a leaky valve cover, double checked and sealed with a bit of Curil. Will see how both go on this next start.

Changed oil.

Generator light was on the entire time. Had been sitting for several years and took it apart to verify components. Will try polarizing it.

So, apparently the distributor has some issues. I checked plug wires and they were all aligned with 1 being over the notch in the distributor.

Could the notch be incorrect? Again, I know I swapped the drive gear, but it should make no difference up top. I also swapped the gear on the SVDA.

Should I try rotating the wires around the distributor to see if it fires?

Unfortunately, I don't have any more tune up parts for the 019, will order some more though.

Just trying to trouble shoot the distributor now.
_________________
-Ryan
Restoration Updates
www.my59bug.com
"Perfection through inspection."

Dale M. · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:40 pm Post subject:

Bring #1 up to TDC (with valves closed- #3 should have at least one valve partially open) and if rotor is pointing to #1 tower in distributor (being #1 plug wire is there) is should start if it has fuel.....

It bothers me the you keep changing the drive pinions on distributors....

This is how everything should be with #1 at TDC....

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

satterley_sr · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject:

New distributors (I think around '71 and newer) rotor is 90 deg counterclockwise to the older style when the pulley is at TDC at the #1 firing position. In otherwords, if you swap a stock newer distributor for an older style one like an 009 or an 019 you have to move the plug wires 90 degrees clockwise.
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DDC racing

Danwvw · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:37 pm Post subject:

OLDveedubs · Samba Member Joined: February 10, 2003 Posts: 602

Thanks for the posts guys. Sorry I'm giving you such heartache Dale. Crying or Very sad

I realize the hassle reversing the gear on the bottom of the distributor causes...for the new owner. I don't plan on selling this any time soon and will do my best not to forget. And the truth is, once installed it will all look and work the same up top. The only time it will be an issue is when someone goes to put in a new distributor and thinks to themselves "huh?"

I spent some more time in the garage for round 2 of tuning. Got the carb all tuned up, purrs like a kit. I'm happy with the 30 PIC, glad to have manual choke for the car. Using a 120 main and 60 idle jet. One thing I have noticed is I set the idle around 850 or so and when I blip the throttle several times with the pedal, the idle drops another 200 or so when it stabilizes. A small blip of the throttle brings it back to normal. I don't have a fast idle cam, so will chase this issue down too.

Eliminated the valve cover leaks and oil leak I had near my full flow case fitting. Loctite worked like a charm. Valve adjustment and changed oil filter for heart attack prevention.

Replaced the voltage regulator and polarized the generator. For anyone that has the generator with two wires going to the D+ terminal...in order to polarize the generator you have to put + battery to BOTH of those wires. One to DF was normal. Had a bit of tough luck finding that info on Samba, tried each one individually and it worked only with both of them. Of course my 59 Bentley covers the earlier two wire style.

Using my old oil pressure switch again. I thought it was broken, so I changed out to a new spade type I had in my parts bin. However it was just low oil pressure on initial cranking and after my oil change. Glad to have my screw post back Smile

I'm going to look more into the bad chassis ground. Hopefully a quick fix. The only two things between the engine and the battery are the negative battery terminal to chassis strap and the trans grounding strap. Both got the royal treatment when I restored the pan, so I'll see what else I can do.

As far as the distributor goes, I'm going to look into it a bit more. The 019 has the screw post on the side of the distributor that has to be insulated from the distributor body. As far as the wires and the 90* off comments, I agree but I did change caps when I changed distributors and the wires were definitely changed to reflect the difference in distributor.

So far I think it's something like:

1) Condenser (will order more new tune up parts to check)
2) Condenser screw post grounding out on body of distributor
3) Possible issue with the wires or firing order?
4) ???

Parts on order. Glad to have it running, now time to sweat the small stuff.

Thank you all for your intelligent responses, it has been a great help.
_________________
-Ryan
Restoration Updates
www.my59bug.com
"Perfection through inspection."

OLDveedubs · Samba Member Joined: February 10, 2003 Posts: 602

Well, like most problems in life, mine was all about timing.

Looking back at it, I aligned the notch with where it was supposed to be and not with the rotor. After some more reading and research I realize how stupid that is. So today, I installed the 019, put #1 at TDC and then aligned the rotor with the notch. Fired on the first try.

Set my dwell, timed at 3500 around 28* advance.

Chased the bad ground to...wait for it...the washers I had installed on the chassis ground bolt. I had put a light layer of clear coat to prevent corrosion like I did on other bolts for the chassis and this time it bit me in the butt.

Had a bit of the powdercoat on the intake manifold chip off near the exhaust preheat tube. Not sure if I'm going to go through the hassle of taking it off or not. Would end up getting it ceramic coated.

For now, I'm going to enjoy the running engine and maybe set it up to do a pan ride around the neighborhood.

As always, thanks to Sambanistas for their patience and help!
_________________
-Ryan
Restoration Updates
www.my59bug.com
"Perfection through inspection."


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