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Webcam 86b - 86c or Engle FK8 - FK10
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1950split
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:45 am    Post subject: Webcam 86b - 86c or Engle FK8 - FK10 Reply with quote

Hi,

In view of an upgrade of my 2110 (82x90.5) engine, I'm in need of some help.

I'm currently using a custom grind cam that has following specs :

- Total duration 295 ;
- Duration @ .050" = 254 ;
- 108 Lobe center ;
- .366" Lift at the cam

I fitted a set of 1.4 rockers and static CR 9.43 and use 45 DRLA with 36 venturis. The heads are Steve Tims Stage 1

It's the first aircooled engine I built and made 126 hp at the crank on the dyno in a 1958 street car with a 3.88 R/P 3.78/2.06/1.26/0.89 gears.

Now I'd like some more power Very Happy

I've read a lot of good things about the FK-8 and the Web 86b but can't figure out if it would really make a great change compared to my cam.

Then comes the Web 86c but my heads might be to small. I therefore thought of going with a set of Steve Tims stage 2, increase the CR to 10:1. Is a 2110 enough cc for a street car with this cam ?

In this case would my 45 DRLA's be enough or do I need the mighty IDAs? The 45 DRLAs' with 2 1/2" filters fit under my hood with CB offset manifolds, which is nice when it's raining but then again with the 86c I guess that straight manifolds are a must ? Confused

I'm not planning a change of my transmission and the car will remain a street car, therefore the cam should match these criterias.

Which cam would you go with ?

Thanks

Phil
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ALB
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: Webcam 86b - 86c or Engle FK8 - FK10 Reply with quote

Question 1- what to do if you keep the Tims stage 1 heads?
An Engle FK8 or Webcam 86B would be the obvious step up to a still streetable, well mannered motor with more power. Both have about 258'-260' @ 0.050" and similar lift, and I agree with you in thinking an 86C or FK10 might be a little much for your combo as it is now. But the FK8/86B wouldn't be much of a step up, and since you've done the custom cam thing before, how about one with 263' @ 0.050" and about 0.020" more lift than you have now? Think of it as an Engle W125 for 1.4 rockers (an FK9?). I've run a W125 (263' @ 0.050")in a street car (1750, 40x35, 44IDF's) and have always thought that amount of duration would make a great stroker motor cam.

Question 2- If you upgrade heads and 86C/FK10 you will be building a beast, and the issue is how streetable does it have to be? Is this regular transportation, or a fairweather toy? Keeping the Dellortos on it will require a venturi change but will still work. Yes, IDA's would give a little more top end, but getting air cleaners in there becomes an issue (as you know). And a lot of guys running this combo use close gears to take advantage of the new powerband, so the question becomes "how hardcore do you want this to be?"

If this car is anything near regular transportation at all I would be going with either the FK8/86B or the custom ground cam idea (I've always thought Engle should have a cam between the FK8 and 10). It would rock with the Tims stage 2's as well, making your motor that much better.

Just my 2 1/2 cents (I'm Canadian, eh). Al

PS- If you do have a 262-263' @ 0.050" cam made I'd be interested in hearing what you think of it when the motor's running. Al
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Throwing a monkey wrench into things.............You may also want to consider the Steve Long SLR XR-302 and XR-310 cams. The same, but different. They make a nice pairing with SLR's parkerized lifters. Just something (else) to consider.
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ALB
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used the Engle and Webcam numbers because that's what Phil (original poster) quoted. Any cam that specs close to what you're looking for will work. I'm told Steve Long's cams work well also. It's all in what you can get hold of.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Webcam 86b - 86c or Engle FK8 - FK10 Reply with quote

[quote="1950split"]Hi,

In view of an upgrade of my 2110 (82x90.5) engine, I'm in need of some help.

I'm currently using a custom grind cam that has following specs :

- Total duration 295 ;
- Duration @ .050" = 254 ;
- 108 Lobe center ;
- .366" Lift at the cam

I fitted a set of 1.4 rockers and static CR 9.43 and use 45 DRLA with 36 venturis. The heads are Steve Tims Stage 1

It's the first aircooled engine I built and made 126 hp at the crank on the dyno in a 1958 street car with a 3.88 R/P 3.78/2.06/1.26/0.89 gears.

Now I'd like some more power Very Happy

I've read a lot of good things about the FK-8 and the Web 86b but can't figure out if it would really make a great change compared to my cam.

Then comes the Web 86c but my heads might be to small. I therefore thought of going with a set of Steve Tims stage 2, increase the CR to 10:1. Is a 2110 enough cc for a street car with this cam ?

In this case would my 45 DRLA's be enough or do I need the mighty IDAs? The 45 DRLAs' with 2 1/2" filters fit under my hood with CB offset manifolds, which is nice when it's raining but then again with the 86c I guess that straight manifolds are a must ? Confused

I'm not planning a change of my transmission and the car will remain a street car, therefore the cam should match these criterias.

Which cam would you go with ?

Thanks

I would go with the web cam the quality is the best and not bad prices but prior to ordering give them a call and ask them for help you will need some info tho
like
stroke , bore ,weight of car, fuel octain rate, compression ratio and all that stuff. tell them where you want the power and wether its track or road they will recomend and i can vouch for them spot on .... Laughing
mines a 2110 supercharged berg motor Twisted Evil
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1950split
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for your comments !

The car is really a weekend driver and therefore although it has to be quite streetable it can be more exclusive than a daily driver.

I don't know Steve Long's cams, do you have the specs of the SLR XR-302 and XR-310 ?

How would the FK-45 handle ? It's specs are :

-Total duration 295
-Duration @ .050" 263
-Lift at the cam .401"

I would use it with 1.4 rockers. Total lift would be .561".

How hard is this cam on the lifter bores? I don't plan to bush them..

What hp range could I expect from a FK-45 with the same displacement and stage 2 heads ? I think 38 venturis would be mandatory.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would call Steve Timms or Greg and talk to them since they are doing your heads and can recommend something that will work well with your combination.
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ALB
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the XR-302 is like the FK8 and 86B. The XR-310 is similar to the FK10 and 86C. The FK 45 would be a great choice but the general consensus is the fast ramps are hard on magnesium lifter bores. Also make sure the springs/retainers can handle that much lift.
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1950split
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Al! Yes, the FK-45 seems to be very nice but what makes it that hard on the lifter bores? Too much lift or not enough duration?

Which parameters should be changed, in the case of a custom grind based on the FK-45, to cause less wearing? A larger base circle ? A different lobe center ? A dual lobe with a softer cams on the exhaust side could be good ? Confused

I'm no cam specialist, sorry.. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1950split wrote:
Thanks Al! Yes, the FK-45 seems to be very nice but what makes it that hard on the lifter bores? Too much lift or not enough duration?

Which parameters should be changed, in the case of a custom grind based on the FK-45, to cause less wearing? A larger base circle ? A different lobe center ? A dual lobe with a softer cams on the exhaust side could be good ? Confused

I'm no cam specialist, sorry.. Very Happy


It's the fast ramps (the amount of time the lifter goes from the closed valve position to full lift) plus the amount of movement the lifter has to do in that very short time that's hard on lifter bores. If you look at Engle's W series or FK65, 7,8,10 or 87 there is approximately 40 degrees between the advertised and @ 0.050" duration with each cam (it will vary a little bit). With the VZ and FK 40's cams that number drops to about 30 degrees. The lifter goes from rest to full lift faster (and goes further because these cams have more lift built into the lobes). This apparently causes more side loading of the lifter in the bore and more wear in mag cases.

If you read Bob Hoover's case modification article for more oil to the lifter bores, rockers and heads http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/hvx-mods.html he states that the lifters and rockers are only getting a pressurized supply of oil 1/6 of the time which is adequate for a stock or mildly modified motor, but aren't nearly enough for an aggressive ramp, high lift cam. I think his modifications would signifigantly slow down the lifter bore wear (if not eliminate it altogether) with a VZ or FK40's cam, but that's purely conjecture on my part. If you haven't read it click on the link; there's some good stuff in there.

Bottom line is I don't think you can tinker with an FK45 in any of the ways you suggested and not lose it's properties. You could give it a larger base circle, but clearances might become a problem and there may not be enough material on the cam blank (it may require a custom blank). A different lobe center won't change the side loading characteristics and messing with the lobes will change how the cam acts. If you're really interested in using the FK45 the answer is to sleeve the lifter bores. I'm actually thinking of using the FK45 in my current build (it will come apart soon for the Bob Hoover mods).

If sleeving the lifter bores isn't an option, custom grinding a cam with specs between the FK8 and FK10 (262-263' @ 0.050" and about .390"? lift at the cam) would make your motor rock (especially with some 42x37 heads). The FK 45 would just give it that little bit more all around power Twisted Evil !

Just my 2 1/2 cents (I'm Canadian, eh). Al
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1950split
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly I don't know any machine shop that proposes the lifter bore bushing here around (Europe). Someone suggests me to use the 86c but from what I know it is not a good low-mid RPM range cam. What is the general consensus about it?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: Webcam 86b - 86c or Engle FK8 - FK10 Reply with quote

1950split wrote:
I'm not planning a change of my transmission and the car will remain a street car, therefore the cam should match these criterias.


The 86C needs close ratio 3rd and 4th to perform well, otherwise you'll drop too much RPM between shifts with your stock gearing. The K8/86B/XR302 cams will work with stock gearing. They will work even better with Tims Stage 2's also. Your 45mm Dells will cover any and all combos well.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope my response will be helpful to you. I'm pretty much running the combination you'e asking about.
Specifically - 82 X 90.5, Berg Porsche length and journal Carillo Rods, Berg / Engle K10 cam, Art Thraen prepped with 3rd progression hole Weber 48 IDA's, CB 044 42 X 37.5 CNC ported and hand ported by Berg's these are 870 style heads / heads match ported to the Berg 590 mainifolds which are ported up to the carburetors, Berg 1:45 rockers and Berg chromoly pushrods, Berg 1 5/8 header, single dynomax muffler, Berg /shadek 26mm pump / full flowed, thing fan shroud with stock super beetle in shroud oil cooler and late model welded fan, standard size Berg eqaulizer pulley, stck diameter alternator pulley, Stinger S4 ignition, stock mecahnical fuel pump, I run 93 octane fuel, compression is set at 8:1 - You get the idea. I tried to build an engine as close to Gary Berg's Berglar engine as I could.

The engine is very steetable. Has good power through the entire rpm range. It pulls hardest from 2000 rpm to 7200 rpm. Have not revved past 7200 at this point as there hasn't been a need to. I've driven it in traffic in hot weather (I live in Florida), as well as on the freeway. The freeway trip was approximately 140 miles one way. The engine had no problems. Starts easily when warmed up and when cold. I have not dynoed the engine at this point.

The engine is in a full weight (full interior, all glass, all steel body) 1968 standard beetle. I only run velocity stack cover type air filters as a full air filter body and top would not clear the deck lid. The deck lid is run with no stand offs it looks stock until you open the decklid. Smile

I'm pretty sure the gearbox has stock gears in it, (I will have a more robust gearbox built for it next year). The car can be driven like a stocker or as aggressive as you wish and the engine does not complain or overheat. Can get out in to traffic from a stop in second gear without the engine complaining.

So in my opinion you can definitely run this combination on the street. I drive the car 2 to three times a week to work or just to have fun. i have not brought i to the dragstrip--yet. I'm afraid I'll break the gearbox. Smile On another website I have seen a reputable VW engine builder comment on having an Engle K10 cam gam ground a little differently to make it an even better performing cam so maybe check in to that on the "other" performance forums known for this kind of information.

Good luck!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 86c in a 2276 and its in a street car (Ghia) and this cam is amazing the engine on the dyno made 206 hp and 185 trq at 6500 RPM'S and still has a little left in it. 86c comes on about 2800 RPM'S and will rev to the moon. I usually shift at 7200 RPM"S and have no problems with crusing on the street. My 2 cents Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJG wrote:
I have a 86c in a 2276 and its in a street car (Ghia) and this cam is amazing the engine on the dyno made 206 hp and 185 trq at 6500 RPM'S and still has a little left in it. 86c comes on about 2800 RPM'S and will rev to the moon. I usually shift at 7200 RPM"S and have no problems with crusing on the street. My 2 cents Shocked


Are you running stock gears or close 3rd/4th? What's it like on a 2 hour drive on the highway?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil- I just compared specs and the 86C and FK10 aren't quite as similar as I thought. The 86C has 6 degrees more duration @ 0.050" (272 vs 266) so the FK10 isn't quite on the ragged edge as we thought. Something to think about.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

86C is fine on the street, provided you have ample compression (I recommend 9.5-10.5:1), and the carbs are PROPERLY TUNED. None of this 13:1 during cruise garbage.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The compression is set at 10.1 Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read quite a lot tonight and users of the 86c usually say that bottom RPM range is not bad with that cam.

If it is softer on the lifter bores it might be a good option. However I have some doubts if it would work with my 3.88 (3.78/2.06/1.26/0.89) transaxle as there are contradictory opinions on this thread Confused
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No where did I see what "desired" rpm range in the top end.

With a 3.88 r/p and stock gears I probably would'n't go 86C.

Seeking power and driveability theres a fine balance. Everyone has their interpretation of what is "driveable".

For a stage 2 head the intake port is a decent size. I'd say for the most part a 7200 redline is more than enough to make good HP without beating on your engine case.

An 86B on a dyno will probably start showing a decline in HP at around 6200 rpm (ballpark depending on intake port size/flow/venturi size/ throttle plate size etc etc lotsa variables). However by the inaccurate seat of your pants you'll probably find shifting at 7000 will be great for keeping up the rpms as you shift.

For a street car I'd say 9.5:1 c/r is a good range if your in using mid/premium gas.

First of all please sleeve your lifter bores with silicon/bronze. Its a phenominal bushing material.

A rampy cam like and fk45 will make the engine feel more responsive down low rpms with your gearing. The issue I see is you will never know the difference until you fine tune your car properly and use different camshaft profile.

With my 2332 I loved my CB2289 cam (similar to 86C). The much larger fk47 cam had similar low end torque but gave me more headroom in the rpms. Due to engine issues I went with a fk46. I absolutely love this cam.

In your case I'd go with a smaller cam and go larger in duration /or rampier cam profile "IF" you dont think its big enough. For a street car with your gearing I'd want "pleasure" as a criteria. If you want more extreme I would go more extreme in heads/cam/carburation or FI and without a doubt shorter gearing.

Sorry for no real answers. Are you going stage 1 heads? or stage 2? What kind of REDLINE are you wanting???? are you gonna increase the size of your venturi's in your 45drla?

As a blanketed suggestion I'd say sleeve your case (eliminate being a statistic in wobbled lifter bores), for more grunt go with an fk40 series cam. 86B is a good choice but if you want more headroom (higher redline) you'll need a bigger cam and larger intake ports.
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