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Bostig conversion, Charcoal cannister. Anybody done this?
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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:23 pm    Post subject: Bostig conversion, Charcoal cannister. Anybody done this? Reply with quote

I'm just finishing up my Bostig conversion. I know that the TEC shop in Seattle has a 5 page PDF on hooking up the charcoal cannister to capture/recycle the gas fumes. Has anyone succeeded in doing this? The TEC shop PDF is rather vague.

TIA,

Stephen






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climberjohn
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the Bostig conversion require that the charcoal cannister be moved from the stock location?

-CJ
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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, the Bostig conversion currently ignores the whole thing. The TEC shop actually does something about it. I don't know enough to understand the why's and wherefore's so I was asking the esteemed community at large here. I'm guessing that it's not so much a big deal if Bostig can comfortably ignore it.

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thummmper
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll give you a little perspective.
the 2.2 subaru conversion uses the vanagon coalcan as well. the 5/8" bottom tube goes to the intake upstream of the throttle body and pcv. The white 6mm hard plastic line goes to the intake manifold for vacuum. [I tapped a 1/4" npt taper thread with an 1/4" icemaker ferrule into it and slipped the 6mm inside the 1/4" for a nice tight fit. the top 5/8 hose goes to the vanagon vacuum valve. the purple 4mm hard plastic goes to the throttle body small black rubber vacuum line system, teeing in.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/642456.jpg
see the vac valve in the right corner and the white plastic line on the right.
the purple line is visible in the foreground crossing the silver manifold.
the black hose at the bacl on the intake periscope is the bottom charcoal hose.
todd
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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So part of my question is: Can the two hard plastic tubes safely be ignored?

Another part of my question is trying to clear up some of the vagaries of the whole system that the cannister functions within. Go easy on me. Use small words... SmileSmileSmile

Stephen






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climberjohn
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The charcoal cannister is part of your emissions control system. It prevents gas vapors from going into the atmosphere, a significant source of air pollution. There is quite a lot written about it here. Tencent, as always, has posted some useful info. Try a search on <charcoal AND cannister>, and check these posts to get started:

Fuel Tank Vacuum
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=391727

EVAP system circumvention go or no go?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=222942

PS - Could you post a link to the vwtechshop .pdf file you mentioned? I'd be very curious to read this, as I am having issues with my cannister as well (a loud "bonk" sound from the gas tank.)

xo,
CJ
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vsyevolod wrote:


Another part of my question is trying to clear up some of the vagaries of the whole system that the cannister functions within. Go easy on me. Use small words... SmileSmileSmile



On my Jetta swap one item I had to learn about was the charcoal canister purge valve.

There should be something similar on your Zetec engine.

Is it connected? Or did the Bostig guys figure out a way to use the stock WBX valve?

Here's what I learned about an electrically controlled purge valve

pulses open/closed via signals from ECU (engine computer)
If failed/failing, when engine run up to temp, shut-down, restarted, valve might have allowed fuel vapours to build up in intake (during shut-down) possibly causing a hard start due to rich mixture. May also cause issues at idle.

My Jetta purge valve ('93 OBD1) is simpler. The Focus one looks more complex. Don't know what other connections are for. Maybe Bostig forums would tell all?

Maybe yours looks like this?

2000-2004 Ford Focus Motorcraft CX1754 Vapor Canister Purge Solenoid:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I havent done it. But if you want to connect the charcoal canister i think you can extend the vaccum hoses from the canister to one of the nipples on the intake.
You know....the ones that are usually broke off when you get your engine from the yard... Bostig supplies some rubber block offs for these.
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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to be a member of the Bostig Core Google Group to view this file. As this question is directed (in part) to people who might have already done this mod, here is the link.

http://bostig-core.googlegroups.com/web/EVAP_BOSTI...F-vtiGpWAA

If you aren't a member of this group, PM me with your email address and I can send you a copy.

Stephen






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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
Vsyevolod wrote:


Another part of my question is trying to clear up some of the vagaries of the whole system that the cannister functions within. Go easy on me. Use small words... SmileSmileSmile



On my Jetta swap one item I had to learn about was the charcoal canister purge valve.

There should be something similar on your Zetec engine.

Is it connected? Or did the Bostig guys figure out a way to use the stock WBX valve?

Here's what I learned about an electrically controlled purge valve

pulses open/closed via signals from ECU (engine computer)
If failed/failing, when engine run up to temp, shut-down, restarted, valve might have allowed fuel vapours to build up in intake (during shut-down) possibly causing a hard start due to rich mixture. May also cause issues at idle.

My Jetta purge valve ('93 OBD1) is simpler. The Focus one looks more complex. Don't know what other connections are for. Maybe Bostig forums would tell all?

Maybe yours looks like this?

2000-2004 Ford Focus Motorcraft CX1754 Vapor Canister Purge Solenoid:



It's my understanding that the Bostig set-up uses an ECU that did not originate with the OEM Ford. I hesitate to say that it is not an OEM computer because I understand it is a Delphi based system and Delphi does supply OEM ECUs to the OEMs, so...

Anyway, the point is that if this is the case, the Bostig ECU most likely has not been written to operate the OEM Evap Purge Valve. This means that it would be best to simply hook up the original charcoal canister just the way VW did it with the stock filter valve in place to determine when to purge the canister via the vacuum signal.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loogy wrote:
Vanagon Nut wrote:
Vsyevolod wrote:


Another part of my question is trying to clear up some of the vagaries of the whole system that the cannister functions within.


On my Jetta swap one item I had to learn about was the charcoal canister purge valve.

There should be something similar on your Zetec engine.

Is it connected? Or did the Bostig guys figure out a way to use the stock WBX valve?

.....



It's my understanding that the Bostig set-up uses an ECU that did not originate with the OEM Ford. I hesitate to say that it is not an OEM computer because I understand it is a Delphi based system and Delphi does supply OEM ECUs to the OEMs, so...

Anyway, the point is that if this is the case, the Bostig ECU most likely has not been written to operate the OEM Evap Purge Valve. This means that it would be best to simply hook up the original charcoal canister just the way VW did it with the stock filter valve in place to determine when to purge the canister via the vacuum signal.


Hey Loogy. Interesting. Makes total sense. And a lot more efficient that using a dummy Ford valve to trick ECU. If that's even possible.

I assume Bostig found a way to interface the stock WBX purge valve to the Zetec TB or other vacuum source. If'n I'm understanding all this correctly. They sure must have done a lot of R&D on their swap! But I digress....

Hopefully the OP has found the solution.

Neil.
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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great, I'm starting to get a better sense of the whats and whyfors about this charcoal cannister stuff. (Thanks guys for all the internal and external links to reading material. I'd like to hook it all up, though have yet to find any simple instructions. Where exactly do I hook up the thin nylon lavender and white lines coming from the cannister that used to hook up somewhere to my 2.1 engine? Special parts needed? What are the specs on the nylon line as I'll need to pick up some more (mine was cut). Any pics available?

Stephen






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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Williamtaylor33 wrote:
I havent done it. But if you want to connect the charcoal canister i think you can extend the vaccum hoses from the canister to one of the nipples on the intake.
You know....the ones that are usually broke off when you get your engine from the yard... Bostig supplies some rubber block offs for these.


That's what I thought as well. But I've looked at two conversions that just came back from the TEC shop that leave the vacuum nipples untouched. They were both Syncros, does that make a difference?

Stephen






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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
On my Jetta swap one item I had to learn about was the charcoal canister purge valve.

There should be something similar on your Zetec engine.


I don't think the Bostig gang does anything like this. I don't see a Focus purge valve anywhere.

Quote:
Is it connected? Or did the Bostig guys figure out a way to use the stock WBX valve?


I don't think it's connected. The WBX doesn't use an electronically controlled purge valve (I think), they use an old-skool one.


Quote:
Maybe yours looks like this?

2000-2004 Ford Focus Motorcraft CX1754 Vapor Canister Purge Solenoid:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Nothing like this on my crate Focus engine...

Stephen






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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loogy wrote:
...This means that it would be best to simply hook up the original charcoal canister just the way VW did it with the stock filter valve in place to determine when to purge the canister via the vacuum signal.


Yes, so far this sounds like the direction I'd like to go. I'm still stumped as to how that looks out there in the real world. Has anyone with a Bostig done this yet? Pictures? I don't get any help from Bostig themselves as they don't deal with it (if I'm understanding them correctly, which I might not be).

Thanks for all the help so far gang, halfway there...

Stephen






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Vsyevolod
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.


Okay, this is what Bostig recommends me to do...



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Take the nylon vacuum line coming out of the Charcoal Filter Valve and feed it back into itself. I'm doing this for now, though it seems like it would be nice for the gas vapour to reenter the fuel area and get recycled somehow. Is it possible that no Bostig converts reading this have done anything with their gas vapour lines?

I do realize that somehow one of the lines is supposed to enter the air line close to the throttle body and the other line is supposed to get hooked up to a vacuum line. Just don't have a clue how or where to do this.

Thanks everybody so far,

Stephen






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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess that's Jim's idea of a joke. At least I think it's pretty funny.

You ought to set this system up to work instead of sidelining it like that. In order to work with the standard control valve, though, there has to be a throttle vacuum nipple on the engine's throttle body. That means a nipple where there is no vac at idle, but vac comes on as soon as the throttle tips in. It will be on the TB directly in line with the plane of the butterfly when closed. If there is no such thing on the Zetec TB then it will be harder to make work, but not impossible.

Once you find the throttle-vac nipple, connect the top of the EEC control valve to there. Connect the bottom fitting of the valve to intake manifold anywhere after the TB.

Before bothering with that, though, you should test the other parts of the system.

First test the tank venting system: remove the small fuel tank vent line from the top of the canister. Attach a piece of hose to it so you can blow into it, or better yet use a vacuum pump/gauge. Remove the fuel filler cap. You should be able to blow or suck air thru the vent line, or using the vac pump you should not be able to pull a vac on that line with the filler cap removed. With the filler cap replaced, you should not be able to blow air thru it, or using the vac pump you should be able to draw down some vac on it.

Then test the canister: fit your test hose to the open nipple on top of the canister where the vent line attached. You should be able to blow or suck air thru the canister. If you can't the canister is blocked and you'll need to replace it.

Replace the tank venting line to the top of the canister.

To test the control valve it really helps to have a vac pump/gauge. Connect it to the fitting on the top of the valve. Attach a hose to the bottom fitting. Try to suck air thru the bottom hose; you should not be able to. Now apply vacuum to the top fitting; as soon as you do, the valve should open and you can now suck air thru the valve from the bottom line.

If all that checks out, plumb the two vac lines as I described above and it will work. No, you won't notice any difference in how the engine runs one way or another.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:


Once you find the throttle-vac nipple, connect the top of the EEC control valve to there. Connect the bottom fitting of the valve to intake manifold anywhere after the TB.


I just wanted add that the "top" fitting will be the smaller of the two and there is usually a purple hose going to it. Obviously the "bottom" nipple is the larger one and the hose coming from it is usually white.

And just to clarify the operation of the valve, at idle, the valve should be closed and no vacuum should drawing on the "top" hose. When the throttle is tipped in, a vacuum signal is formed on the top hose which opens the valve and allows the vacuum in the intake manifold to draw the vapors out of the canister into the intake tract via the bottom hose on the valve. The valve basically creates a controlled vacuum leak that is used to evacuate the charcoal canister.

I'm not familiar at all with the Zetec throttle body, so unless someone else know for sure which nipple can be used, you will have to experiment using a vacuum gauge and a piece of hose.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vsyevolod wrote:
Vanagon Nut wrote:
On my Jetta swap one item I had to learn about was the charcoal canister purge valve.

There should be something similar on your Zetec engine.


I don't think the Bostig gang does anything like this. I don't see a Focus purge valve anywhere.

Quote:
Is it connected? Or did the Bostig guys figure out a way to use the stock WBX valve?


I don't think it's connected. The WBX doesn't use an electronically controlled purge valve (I think), they use an old-skool one.


Quote:
Maybe yours looks like this?

2000-2004 Ford Focus Motorcraft CX1754 Vapor Canister Purge Solenoid:




Nothing like this on my crate Focus engine...

Stephen





Ah. A crate. Nice. I was thinking from POV of getting engine etc from a donor car. Sorry about suggesting purge valve was on engine. Seems on a Focus, purge valve is on firewall. But that's all moot. You're dealing with the Vanagon EVAP system and from Loogys post, it seems that Bostig has adapted whatever ECU they're using so that the Ford purge valve won't be missed. Still, you need something.

For sure. The WBX is vacuum type.

Yup. On the firewall. (upper LH)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Stephen, did you ever get this figured out? I'm in the middle of my conversion and should be bolting up my tranny and Zetec Saturday.

Thanks, Sanford

Vsyevolod wrote:
loogy wrote:
...This means that it would be best to simply hook up the original charcoal canister just the way VW did it with the stock filter valve in place to determine when to purge the canister via the vacuum signal.


Yes, so far this sounds like the direction I'd like to go. I'm still stumped as to how that looks out there in the real world. Has anyone with a Bostig done this yet? Pictures? I don't get any help from Bostig themselves as they don't deal with it (if I'm understanding them correctly, which I might not be).

Thanks for all the help so far gang, halfway there...

Stephen






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