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1.9 WBX muffler on a 2.1?
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geo_tonz
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: 1.9 WBX muffler on a 2.1? Reply with quote

I was reading another muffler thread that was just started and it sparked a related question but I didn't want to hijack...

Can you use an OEM replacement muffler for a 1.9L WBX on a 2.1? Any problems mounting or too restrictive?

I ask because I put a whole new system on my '85 a couple years ago and now have bought an '89 as my main runner. It was missing a tail pipe and when I went to replace it I noticed the muffler was rusting through around the flange. The beatings I will have to give it to remove the old tailpipe hardware will likely destroy it. Given that the '85 is a parts van now it chokes me to have to buy a new muffler for the '89 ($220 delivered for a regular OEM style) when there's a perfectly good one on my old van. Plus there are many other "small fixes" on the "new" van calling to my wallet...(it's a Vanagon)...

This is the one I bought from CIP:
http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-025-251-053-E
Not sure of the brand, but I remember a lot of Mansk stickers when I pulled the pipes out to assemble.

Thanks in advance.
Tony.
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geo_tonz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too stupid a question? C'mon, tell me, I can take it!
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Tony, I would go ahead and install the good cat/muffler.

You might lose a few hundred RPM off the top end but who would really notice! Wink
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geo_tonz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake de Villiers wrote:
Hey Tony, I would go ahead and install the good cat/muffler.

You might lose a few hundred RPM off the top end but who would really notice! Wink


Not sure if you're messing with me or not... Confused

Why would I loose RPM at the top? More restrictive than an OEM-Style 2.1L muffler? Any detriment to the engine?

Would it fit in the 2.1 muffler hangers?
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Brown Vanagon "Bob": 1985 Vanagon 9 Pass rust bucket. 1.9L Auto - Donor
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Bman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:26 pm    Post subject: Franken Motor Reply with quote

I just did this myself.. My Doka has a 2.1 block, with a 1.9 FI sytem, and HAD an aircooled exhaust system. I took off the aircooled exhaust and rusty POS muffler and replaced with a used 2.1 exhaust system, but as I got to the CAT and muffler I found that my used 2.1 muffler could not fit the space without touching the rear body. Not wanting any rattling or heat/rust damage I stole the 1.9 muffler from my Tiico 89 Westy to complete the Doka job.

Hear is what I found: as one goes from the exhaust elbow to the outside pipe and into the CAT the 2.1 piping is 2"; the 1.9 muffler is 1.75" and so conceivably there could be some back pressure. Since I did this job (2 weeks ago) I have been dealing with a chronic low idle that I detailed here:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=580610&highlight=

Which NO ONE came to my rescue with ideas.

I have tried "fixing" this idle by unplugging my single wire Oxy sensor to no avail, I also thought of busting out the CAT interior to see if there was a blockage, however, I can see through the used CAT and determined that no blockage was occurring there. Could it be the 2" to 1.75" pipe? I don't know, and I'm not convinced that it is. But something has changed that my computer is running the van too low (rich?). I am starting to wonder, maybe my oxygen sensor has failed.

One of my problems with the 2.1 muffler was that I had some earlier model engine tin that prevented me from using the standard hangers, so I am only using the one rear exhaust pipe attached hanger and found that it holds the 1.9 muffler fine.

Please also explain to me what you mean by loosing RPMs off the top? Although I am sluggish on the idle, when I now drive the rig it is nice and quiet, but also seems to drive smother than before?

My thoughts
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geo_tonz wrote:
Jake de Villiers wrote:
Hey Tony, I would go ahead and install the good cat/muffler.

You might lose a few hundred RPM off the top end but who would really notice! Wink


Not sure if you're messing with me or not... Confused

Why would I loose RPM at the top? More restrictive than an OEM-Style 2.1L muffler? Any detriment to the engine?

Would it fit in the 2.1 muffler hangers?


The 1.9 pipes are smaller than the 2.1, so there will be more restriction, hence the comment. With my 1.9 and 2.1 WBX engines I never bothered to use much revs because it didn't make much difference.

The 2.5 Subaru engine however, will pull hard right to the 6500RPM redline and flows a LOT more air. I blew apart a nearly new Ernst 2.1 muffler with this engine and now use a cat and muffler with 2 1/2" tubing.

I don't think you'll have a problem using it on your van.
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geo_tonz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool, thanks Jake and Bman.

Wasn't sure if your 1st comment was more of "go ahead...you'll find out" sarcasm but didn't think it was.

Any comments on mounting? Will the stock 2.1 saddles work?

As long as there's no potential for engine issues long term and it won't neuter the van then I'll go for it. I guess my concern with the stronger back pressure is if I'll start to find/develop weak points up-stream. The pipes look ok but the gaskets between look old and tired. But what's fixing an issue on the Vanagon if I don't find 2 more?
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Bman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stock saddles? Do you mean the muffler hangers?

If you mean the muffler holders/hangers that attach either to the front exhaust pipe or the mustache bar rubber, then yes they will hold the 1.9 muffler just fine, plus room to spare. I did not find any exceptional rattling of the muffler when I used the 2.1 hangers on the 1.9 muffler. Our do you mean the gaskets? I used a 2.1 gasket kit from VC, larger than the 1.9 intake and so still sealed and didn't provide any additional blockage.

measure your muffler (1.9) intake pipe should be about 1.75" compared to a 2.1 CAT it is only a .25" difference. How much real back pressure are we really talking about?
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1990 Burgandy Tintop (Wife's Daily Driver)
1989 Tiico Westfalia "Taj"
1986 Tintop Syncro (Project)
1984 2WD Doka Transporter (Daily Driver)



2WD Doka build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=503578&highlight=
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geo_tonz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes that's what I meant, thanks.
I'll give it a shot the next time I don't have to lay in a puddle to work on it. I really need to paint the van that's in the garage so I have a dry place to work!
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geo_tonz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a follow-up on this.

I got the 1.9 L muffler on without too much drama, but the 2.1L muffler brackets and straps were way too big and wouldn't clamp the muffler in place. I had some scrap aluminium 'c' channel that I had taken off my old boat so I cut a couple pieces to use as spacers. The muffler is being held pretty well but I think the flanges are turned slightly different compared to a 2.1 L muffler. The reason I mention this is that I put a stainless GW Tailpipe on and the only position that would work is pretty much pointed straight down. It looks reasonable as the bent-back portion is very short and it's mostly up behind the rear body work but I suspect the flange on the 2.1 L muffler is probably turn a bit when compared to the 1.9 L so the tailpipe sits more horizontal and shoots more aft, not down. Maybe I'm mistaken and the GW tailpipe is supposed to fit this way, or was welded incorrectly? The muffler also didn't seem to sit quite square until I torqued it down. Now the doughnut connection on the engine-side of the cat is leaking, probably as a result of me coercing it into position (no beating, just tightening the straps).

This is a Mansk muffler from California Import Parts, so others may be different.

All in all, yes it worked and my van is quieter and doesn't seem to run any different, but I would still prefer to have a 2.1 L muffler on it. When the rest of the pipes start to go I'll just get the whole system.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 2.1 is smaller in diameter, is much shorter than the 1.9 and uses 1 hanger & straps, the 2.1 uses 2.

Now--what the biigest issue is that the aftermarket muffler's don't follow the factory sizes.
I know the walker mufflers for one are all smaller in diameter.
I suppose the rest of the not stock replacements follow the same pattern.

If you want to use a 2.1 muffler you need the correct saddles & straps, and the straps are going to have to be a hair shorter.

I make HD last forever muffler straps for this very occasion.
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geo_tonz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well in this instance Terry the aftermarket muffler I had bought originally for my 1.9l '85 was smaller in diameter than the rusted-out 2.1l muffler I was replacing. I needed spacers between the muffler and straps to secure the 1.9l muffler in the 2.1l brackets. Otherwise it seems to work fine with the possible exception of the tail pipe possibly being slightly off kilter.
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Brown Vanagon "Bob": 1985 Vanagon 9 Pass rust bucket. 1.9L Auto - Donor
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davevickery
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've used a couple different walker 6 inch mufflers on engine conversions. They are inexpensive and quiet. The earmark 1.9 was excellent. I wonder about the blowing it apart comment. What kind of psi would it take to do that. Seems impossible without being blocked up.
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