Battery or Coil issue after running elec w/ engine off

cylonics

So I had the bus key switched to on and was listening to some tunes for 30 min, remembered to turn off the radio but not the key. Found it totally dead the following weekend, but it jumped fine.
Then, bonehead move, was checking my dash light upgrade in the dark garage, remebered to turn off the lights, but again, not the key. It was dead the next weekend, jumped fine, but a week later it's not getting enough juice to start. Had enough to turn over a few times but then just clicking noise from the solenoid (I assume).

Checked ratwell article 9.27 http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FAQ/FAQContent.html and says "coil ... shouldn't be left on for long periods of time"

So question1 - is the battery the only problem or the coil? Would rather not replace both if I can get away with it. I need to check the date and charge on the battery either way.
Question 2; If this is a good time for 79 Westy upgrades (battery, alternator, coil, et. al.) what be they?
Searched on this but found only partial info dispersed over many threads, link would be fine too.
Happy Christmahannukwanzakah!
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Wildthings · Samba Member Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 52746

Running the battery fully dead a couple of times may well have toasted it. You might have damaged the coil as well, and/or the points.

Randy in Maine · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:50 am Post subject:

Remove battery and charge it or take it someplace to have it charged. If no good replace it.

Inspect points for pitting, try adjusting them with the dwell meter.

If no good replace the points and condensor. Bosch only please.

Blaize · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:00 am Post subject:

You may have damaged the ignition, but unless that battery was near new you have just about definatley killed it. replace it first before you satart getting to upset about the ignition parts (though as stated the points deserv a good look)
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TheTominator · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:07 am Post subject:

Start with the battery. The odds are probably better than 50% on the other two being ok.
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twinfalls · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:13 am Post subject:

This is why VW put a buzzer to warn about forgetting the ignition key.

I suggest you make it back, working.
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fusername · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject:

you must have gotten really lucky as leaving the key on for a decent amount of time will usually cook the coil, but for you to do it 3 times and have the car still work, eaach time it happened the points must have been open, so no power was flowing thru the coil, and thereby saving it. normally a coil will get really hot if left on for say 20 minutes, and apparently it just bakes itself eventually.
or maybe its just so cold out it couldn't overheat. who knows. once you charge the battery and get her started, check how fat your spark is and you will know if you should replace it, but I am pretty sure a coil either works or it doesnt, there is minimal of a grey area, but I could be wrong on that point. and new points and condensor, every motor loves that. new rotor+cap is also a nice bonus, but points and condensor is more important.
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cylonics · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject:

I'm going to start with the following; check voltage, date and type of battery, jump it again and see if it fires right up (it did last time), if so will go for a nice long spin to the recycling center and back, check voltage again, running and off. Then will let it sit (with the key off Rolling Eyes

) until after XMas and test voltage again. If it drops unacceptably low and doesn't start will get the battery.
So I know its a stock 41 type, or better yet a stock 43 type, and I know there's an optima upgrade. I wouldn't mind upgrading from 41, if that's what's in there, but want to be sure I don't need a bigger alternator or other parts to match.
If it won't start with a jump, or a new battery doesn't fix it, will then move to checking your suggestions.

Thanks all! If you happen to know of any good battery deals or other stuff I should combine with this let me know...
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WhirledTraveller · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject:

Bigger battery does not require a bigger alternator... you could in theory run a whole bank of batteries with a 55 AMP (some on this forum do), it'll just take longer to charge from dead.

Jumping a dead battery is a necessary evil, and will kill your battery if it's close to dead. If you have any access to a battery charger at all then you are FAR better placing it on a slow charge overnight. While you're at it pull the caps off and check the level of the acid. Add *distilled* water if necessary. A hydrometer (roughly $10) can verify if you have a dead cell.

With normal maintenance batteries will last a long time. I've brought 7 year old batteries back from the dead with nothing more than the above. People seem to have the idea that "modern" batteries do not require maintenance but will only last 3 years... a falsehood.
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Desertbusman · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:45 am Post subject:

Don't jump to (wrong?) conclusions too fast. If it just turned over a few times and the solenoid started clicking the problem is it's not getting enough juice to the starter. That's a battery or related issue. The coil would only become a topic to consider if the starter was giving the engine a good spin and the engine wasn't firing. The suggestion to use a small battery charger is the right one. Give the battery a nice slow charge and see what happens with your volt meter. If after is sits a few days and the voltage has dropped, don't run off to buy a new battery. Instead, charge it up again and then remove one of the battery cables. Let it set a few days and then check the voltage. If it drops while unhooked then it is a battery issue. Check the electrolite but don't worry much about the date or the fact that you let it discharge a couple times. I'd like to have a dollar for every time I have left something turned on and the battery ran down. And the batteries have been lasting well beyond any indicated date. And they are the cheapo batteries. The biggest issue people have with batteries is not the battery but rather the battery cables or a drain somewhere in the system.
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cylonics · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject:

Got 7.7 volts after sitting for a few weeks. Jumped it and went for a 30 min drive, and got 12.03 volts after putting it back in the garage. The battery is a newer die hard, not the correct type at all, has the posts on top, but hey it started the thing for a few years...

Going to wait until next weekend and check voltage again, but may need to borrow a charger to try to save the battery. I have an inverter to run 12 v accesories in the house, and it has prongs for output but can't find the wired clips it uses.
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twinfalls · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject:

Wildthings · Samba Member Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 52746

If you were seeing 7.7 Volts and the temps were very cold outside then the battery may well have been frozen. If it did freeze you may have cracks in the case or damage to the plates. Best to take the battery out of the car so you don't end up with acid everywhere.

cylonics · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject:

WhirledTraveller · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:25 am Post subject:

12.03 volts is a promising sign that it is taking a charge. However your battery is nowhere near fully charged after a 30 minute drive. 12.03 resting volts corresponds to a state of charge somewhere between 15 and 25%. A fully charged battery should read about 12.65 volts (depending slightly upon temperature). You need to drive at speed for several hours to fully recharge a dead battery, that's why you need the charger (among other reasons).
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cylonics · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject:

I'm just happy it seems to be a battery only issue, can you tell I'm used to other vehicles? Laughing

Tonight it's at 11.87 volts.
Somehow a battery charger is always that item I neglect to buy at a yard sale, but if I can't borrow one from a neighbor I might just grab the $20 at sears and have it over with. Even if I never use it again it's better than a new battery.
Thanks for the help all. If there are any points to be made about batteries, coils, solenoids and... points, feel free to add to the thread.

My questions are; pics of replacing points, how to adjust wirth dwell meter, what the hell is a condensor apart from A/C,
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Custodian of Verde (79 westy from this board) until further notice. Former owner 1984 Westy flame thrower.

Randy in Maine · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject:

Might want to read about this.... Note capacitor = condensor

http://users.mrbean.net.au/~rover/ketterin.htm

cylonics · Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:13 am Post subject:

Found the right alligator clips for the charger, this is almost exactly the same model as RPS-1204CPBT. http://www.samlexamerica.com/customer_support/pdf/SlickSheets/RPS-1204CPBT_SlickSheet.pdf
Voltage from batt seemed to bottom out at 11.87 last few days, and output from this charger is 13.8. Have it charging now but need to leave and not comfortable leaving it on while I'm gone.
Anybody see any glaring stupidity in this setup? Obviously this is not a battery conditioner, so am not going to leave it on constantly. If there are any suggestions on best way to work with what I have, and why, I'd be interested to hear them. Am familiar with the basics of electricity, but paranoid I'm going to break some VW or battery specific rule that I am unaware of...
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Custodian of Verde (79 westy from this board) until further notice. Former owner 1984 Westy flame thrower.

WhirledTraveller · Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:41 am Post subject:

That voltage supply is safe to leave on continuously. 13.8 Volts cannot overcharge your battery even if you left it on year-round. A good automatic charger will charge to 14.6 Volts to get a 100% charge then switch to a "float" mode around 13.2 to 14.0 Volts depending upon temperature, which will just maintain the full charge and prevent self-discharge.

So 13.8 Volts constant is completely safe, and although it will probably not quite give you a full 100% charge, it should be close enough.
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1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam.

twinfalls · Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject:

This is very good for charging a 12v battery


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Battery or Coil issue after running elec w/ engine off
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